Solide lost.

Our second debate in the debate arena, LK! Excited?

Buena suerte.

Haar vs. Calill.

Haar is a narcoleptic, dragon-riding pseudo-pirate. Calill is . . . it doesn’t matter, since Haar is a narcoleptic, dragon-riding pseudo-pirate.

Point: Haar.

Now, on to Supports.

Calill has Nephenee, Geoffrey, and Tormod.

Geoffrey doesn’t mind, whatever.

For Tormod . . . Devdan phails, but Sothe and Reyson are viable. Reyson is 5 chapters to A, one less than A Calill, and starts 2 chapters earlier, for a total of 7 chapters. 7 chapters is indeed quite significant, so Tormod will most likely be taking Reyson as his A (Tormod is also Reyson’s best Support, as both his Ike and Tanith Supports are considerably slower, so this works out mutually). If Sothe is your main Thief, Tormod wants him over Calill since those bonuses are around much sooner. However, since Volke is your Thief most of the time, Calill can nab a B with Tormod, sure.

Nephenee. Devdan, once again, fails. A Brom is 11 chapters to A Calill’s 6, but it starts a full 9 chapters earlier, so the difference is actually in Brom’s favor by 4. And Brom’s affinity is better (Water > Dark since Def > Avo in a game where enemies actually have decent Hit and Biorhythm exists). A B with Calill is fine again, though.

So Calill can get double B’s with Tormod and Nephenee. And she can add in a C Geoffrey in there later if she wants to.

As for Haar, he has Jill and Makalov.

Jill has . . . Mist and Lethe. lol @ Lethe. She’s about as phail as Devdan, so let’s discard her. Mist is good, but she probably only wants a B with Jill since Mordecai exists. Water x Water is as h4x as you can get. With A Mordecai/B Jill vs. A Jill/B Mordecai, it’s basically 1 Atk vs. 2 Avo, and Mist’s Atk is quite borderline (with forged Swords, she about matches Ocar with unforged Lances, so she’s not “horrendous,” but she’s on the edge, meaning the more Atk she gets, the more difference it’ll make), so she’ll want that more. 2 Avo is also nothing at all in this game—Biorhythm already causes deviations of greater value than that, and that’s without considering higher enemy Hit in this game. So Jill will most likely be getting an A with Haar (sometimes B if Jill gets A Mist instead).

Makalov . . . has Astrid and Bastian. Bastian is the bottom unit of Bottom Tier—there is no way that Makalov is Supporting him. Astrid, sure, whatever. So Haar snatches another B here with Makalov.

At this point we notice that Haar has a considerable advantage in Supports—both of Haar’s Support options are >>> all three of Calill’s Supporters quite easily. Jill, in fact, is commonly considered the 2nd best unit in the entire game. h4x. The only case you could argue is Makalov vs. Nephenee, as they’re both in the same tier on most tier lists, but even then Makalov has defense and Move Again/more Move/better weapons vs. Nephenee’s offense, so he pretty much wins that as well.

What this means is that Haar is much more likely to have his Supporters on the team than Calill is (also note that whenever Sothe is your Thief, Tormod might not want Calill, so that gives Haar another advantage). And then both of Haar’s Supporters are also mounted and have Move Again, making it tons easier to have the bonuses in play (better positioning ftw).

For now, we’ll assume B Tormod/B Nephenee/C Geoffrey vs. A Jill/B Makalov.

--

Calill starts at level 20/6 on Chapter 20, whereas Haar joins at level 20/11 on Chapter 23. 5 levels in that period sounds about right (might be too high, even, but meh), so we can conveniently compare them at the same level.

By the time Haar appears, it's been three chapters, so Nephenee-Calill would be at a B and Tormod-Calill at a C.

20/11 Calill B Nephenee/C Tormod
Elthunder: 30.3 Atk, 65.1 Hit, 20.2 Crit, 20.3 AS | 34.5 HP, 10.0 Def, 18.8 Res, 70.1 Avo

20/11 Haar
Steel Axe: 32.0 Atk, 115 Hit, 9.5 Crit, 17.0 AS | 47.0 HP, 20.0 Def, 10.0 Res, 46 Avo
Hand Axe: 28.0 Atk, 105 Hit, 9.5 Crit, 17.0 AS | 47.0 HP, 20.0 Def, 10.0 Res, 46 Avo
Silver Axe: 37.0 Atk, 120 Hit, 9.5 Crit, 17.0 AS | 47.0 HP, 20.0 Def, 10.0 Res, 46 Avo

Defense clearly belongs to Haar. 10 Def and 12-13 HP (and possible WTA) is not a joke, and 24 Avoid doesn’t come close to winning out (the Def alone would probably win, but then there’s the huge HP)—Biorhythm exists, for one, to make Avoid unreliable, and then when Haar has WTA that gap closes to 12 (and the Def gap increases by 1), making it even more insignificant. The Res lead that Calill has barely matters because all the threatening Mages are gone by lategame (IIRC there’s one nice Elwind Sage in the last chapter, whoopee).

Bows exist, but Lances/Swords/Axes together far outnumber Bows, so whatever advantage Calill could claim from them is moot. Not to mention that Bows only get doubled Might, so a Steel Bow only does 9 extra damage to Haar, so all that effectively does is reduce Haar’s Def lead to 1, and then he still has the massive HP lead, so he’s winning there. You might have a case for Calill winning against a Silver Bow Sniper, but . . . I think there’s only one in the entire game. Silver weapons on the enemy side aren’t very common in this game.

Now, you could argue that Calill possesses 1-2 Range, which allows her not to take counterattacks on Player Phase, but that’s not really going to help in this case due to Haar’s massive concrete durability win.

A Level 4 Paladin, for example, with 15 Str and a Steel Lance, has 25 Atk. It does 5 damage to Haar, killing in 10 hits, whereas it does 15 damage to Calill, killing her in 3. And that’s without factoring in Haar’s WTA against it, in which case it’d take 12 hits to kill him instead of 10.

As you can see, the difference in their concrete durabilities is quite huge. For Calill to be as durable as Haar via 1-2 Range, she’d need to take a grand total of 9 less hits than him. And this is almost entirely implausible for many different reasons.

First, whenever Haar wields Hand Axe, Haar doesn’t take counters on Player Phase either, and he can wield Hand Axe whenever he does enough damage with it to 2HKO anyway (meaning, against almost everything unpromoted, which includes a lot of things).
Second, whenever Haar can OHKO the enemy (or whenever he’s finishing off a weakened enemy) he doesn’t take counters on Player Phase, just like Calill.
Third, you can only be attacked once on Player Phase, but you can be attacked several times on Enemy Phase. And on Enemy Phase, Calill’s 1-2 Range isn’t going to let her take less attacks than Haar (enemies will still go after her despite her having 1-2 Range since her durability is so much lower than Haar’s, and Haar can trade out for a Hand Axe if the situation is dire enough that he needs to avoid a counter on Enemy Phase as well).

Considering all three of these things, it’s almost impossible for Calill to match Haar or even come close to matching Haar in durability, even with 1-2 Range. And then, even if she somehow did manage to take 9 less hits than Haar in the given example, Haar would *still* be winning, since the probability of 12 attacks out of, say, 15, striking Haar is a lot less than the probability of 3 attacks out of say, 6, striking Calill.

The Steel Lance Paladin has 25, 12.75% real chance of hitting Calill and 39, 30.81% chance to hit Haar. The chance of Calill taking 3 hits (death) out of 6 is ~3.1%. The chance of Haar taking 12 hits (death) out of 15 is a mighty 0.0001%.

lol, the difference is massive.

So, as you can see, Haar pretty clearly wins durability. His concrete durability win is so much greater that even Calill’s 1-2 Range can’t override it (she needs to take a lot fewer hits than he does to even approach his durability, and even then, the chance of those fewer hits hitting her is greater than the chance of many hits hitting him, so he still wins regardless).

Offense now.

Calill can win offense during the short period of time during which Haar is using Steel Axe. It doesn’t really matter, as in 25 rounds he’ll be up to an A in Axes and will start to use Silver Axes.

When Haar does that, however, Calill no longer has a clear offensive victory. 7 (8 with WTA) Atk lead vs. hitting Res? Some enemies have less than 7 Def-Res gaps, some more, and some thereabouts. Generals will have 10, Wyverns 12, Halberdiers 5, Snipers 5, Hawks 7, Swordmasters 4, Ravens 3ish, Paladins 6ish, Warriors 5, Dragons 7, Cats 9, and Tigers 11. And that’s only against promoted enemies. The gap is slightly smaller for unpromoted enemies. So, it depends on what enemy you’re facing—Haar wins Atk vs. some enemies, whereas Calill wins against others.

Then Calill has an AS lead for more doubling, but Haar has flying so that he can reach more enemies, which is a pretty massive boost to offense. It’s obviously better to reach more enemies—reaching more means killing more. Frequently not everyone on your party can attack, and units are just moving forward. In the case of Haar, this is rarely true. Not only can he surpass obstacles with huge Move, but he also possesses Move Again. Added up over the course of a chapter, the additional spaces moved via Move Again amount to quite a large number. If Calill used 4 Move on average per turn and Haar used his entire 9, then in just 15 turns Haar has used _75_ more Move than Calill has. h4x.

So offense is pretty arguable.

However, that’s not even the end of this comparison. Haar’s Move Again/huge Move/flying adds to his use incredibly, even beyond offense. The main reason is that most of the best units in this game have huge Move (Oscar, Kieran, Jill, Marcia, Tanith, Mist, Titania, Astrid, Makalov—even Mordecai and Muarim have the same Move transformed as the mounted units, so they technically qualify). Therefore, your party is filled most of the time with high-Move units. What this means is a unit with average Move has a hard time keeping up, both in positioning and number of kills. Not so for Haar. He doesn’t lose out on anything at all—in fact, he fits right in.

Calill? Calill’s Move is actually 1 below the average foot unit. Yes, she has constant 1-2 Range, but that doesn’t increase her actual _Move_, which affects positioning and kills on Enemy Phase. With so many mounted units on the team, Calill is going to get shafted a lot. She’s being a detriment just by being fielded, at least relative to Haar.

And then Haar’s Atk Range is still a lot greater. With a Hand Axe, Haar has the greatest Atk Range in the game short of a Seize tome. That’s just h4x for being able to outrange enemies, which saves the rest of your team from possibly having to lure in said enemy (if it's a threatening one, this could be bad).

And then Haar can also stay in range of his soon-to-be Supports much more easily, since he and his potential Supporters all possess Move Again.

So winning defense clearly + have arguable offense + huge Move/flying/Move Again easily makes Haar the winner at this point.

Do things change as time goes on? Let’s do an endgame comparison:

20/20 Calill, B Nephenee/B Tormod/C Geoffrey
Elthunder: 35.3 Atk, 153.8 Hit, 22.2 Crit, 24.3 AS | 39.0 HP, 13.6 Def, 21.9 Res, 85.8 Avo

20/20 Haar, A Jill/B Makalov
Silver Axe: 42.4 Atk, 144.1 Hit, 12.2 Crit, 20.2 AS | 52.8 HP, 28.1 Def, 15.8 Res, 78.7 Avo

14 HP, 15 Def (lol) >>>> 8 Res and 7 Avo and 1-2 Range, for reasons explained above.

7 Atk, flying = 4 AS, attacking Res, more or less. Both have their advantages.

And then there’s huge Move/Move Again. Haar’s Support bonuses are also in range more often due to all three of them having Move Again vs. none of Calill’s (including Calill herself, as a matter of fact) having Move Again except Geoffrey, with whom she only has a C. While we’re speaking of that C, remember that it’s harder to keep in range of 3 Supporters than it is to keep in range of 2, so that's another point for Haar.

So, what have we got overall? Haar has a significant advantage in the playability of his Supporters, is winning durability by a landslide always, and has huge Move and Move Again. To compare to that . . . Calill has offense, and that’s a maybe, since flying puts a wrench into the works (they’re more or less equal after you consider the offensive advantage of reaching more enemies). Even outright giving Calill the win in offense, Haar would be winning due to all of his other advantages.

Haar wins this debate quite easily.

No %::%

Gracias.

I'd wish you luck, but you probably don't need it against someone like me.

Calill is a woman. Women are the most wonderful creation. Haar can go die.

kk. Things I'd like to point out first...

-No objections to Haar's support set you used in your stat comparisons.
-You said that Haar can get B Jill if the wyvern rider slut gets A Mist. You also gave Calill B Nephenee. In this post, I'll explain that Calill can get A Nephenee. If you are going to use the best support set for your unit, it is fair that my unit gets her better support set, considering it's possible. Said suport set shall be A Nephenee, B Tormod.

Moar like, Geoffrey loves Calill, because if she isn't there, he's stuck to only an Elincia support. Oh well, it doesn't matter.

Racist.

Anyway, I'm perfectly fine with having B Tormod, but there is a part of your paragraph that I don't agree with.

TormodxReyson is fire-fire. Have you looked at the fire affinity bonuses? Hit and Atk. Reyson has absolutely no use for this support. Hell, C Ike/Tanith is better because 5 avoid can actually help him. I prefer slower, but useable bonuses. You?

Granted, Reyson still probably gets A Tormod, because Ike and Tanith like to be full with other units, but I just felt like ranting. Hope you understand me %::%

Racist, once again.

What if Boyd gets A Brom? Entirely possible. It's also the best for Brom (because Boyd gives attack, Nephenee gives Avoid,which doesn't matter much on a unit like Brom, who tanks with high DEF-HP). Boyd usually supports Mist, but, she happens to be full with Mordecai and Jill in your support argument ("Water x Water is as h4x as you can get") Then Boyd would go with A Brom, B Titania, meaning Nephenee goes with B Brom and has room for A Calill, yes?

And, no, Water is not better than dark in this support, because Nephenee is Wind. Let's compare A Brom, B Calill to A Calill, B Brom. (I won't include hit, because it doesn't matter.)

A Brom, B Calill. 2 Atk, 1 Def, 17 Avo
A Calill, B Brom. 2 Atk, 1 Def, 20 Avo

As you can see, it is very possible for Neph to get A Calill, so, I will slightly alter your second comparison to reflect this.

Also, I noticed that you not only hate Devdan, but you also seem to hate the Dark affinity. You are a horrible person.

You know what I'm thinking.

Jill Granted. Nephenee is on the same tier as Makalov. Maybe she isn't better, but she is a great unit nonetheless. Tormod and Geoffrey are also good units. Tormod is a mage with high movement, which is a unique quality. His offense is great as he has 1-2 range and targets RES and he gets staves. Another healer is always appreciated. Geoffrey, on the other hand, has solid stats, a horse and Paragon.

Positioning is also not much of an issue. Nephenee frontlines, Calill and Tormod snipe from the back. Only problem could be when Tormod heals someone, but since Reyson is hanging around to help Tormod's offense, he helps with positioning.

Also, to counter this, I could say that Calill's supports are active for more time. Haar doesn't seem to have an advantage anymore, does he?

Moving on...

I'll just point out that Calill has a clear victory during 4 chapters, since Haar doesn't exist yet. Said 4 chapters would be 20, 21, 22 and 23. Yeah, that's right, Haar's joining chapter. He joins halfway through it and he has to worry about ballistas and spends turns moving through the bridge. Calill is certainly more useful there.

Calill has more than 65 Hit (Elthunder itself has 75) but it doesn't matter much.

It also helps her during enemy phase, aganst ranged enemies (they are kinda common in this game) as they prefer to attack someone who can't counter.

Now, now, I wouldn't argue that Calill is superior defensively, but I can argue for her defensive stats to be good enough to guarantee that she won't die. Let's use your Paladin example.

First, the chance (3.1%)of Calill dying in 6 hits is extremely slim. 97%~ of the time she receives six hits she lives. But, is she actually getting attacked six times per turn? I don't think so. I don't recall groups of 6 steel lance Paladins in the game, and even if they existed, their chance of sucess at killing Calill is almost insignificant. You did an excellent job proving how Calill has great durability, in a situation that doesn't even happen. Now imagine how well she survives in the actual game.

The difference is most certainly not massive. Both units are fully capable of surviving. Of course, it is understandable that you want to exagerate Haar's defense, as his offense is subpar, as I shall prove now.

Ok, I guess this would be sometime during chapter 25. Meaning Calill has had superiority during chapters 20-24 (5) while there are only 5 remaining chapters. Will Haar be able to surpass the first class sage? Let's see...

harhar Comparing Atk vs Hitting RES and flying vs AS? Nice try. Unfortunately for you, things don't work like that. Flying is an action that has nothing to do with the outcome of a battle, while hitting RES + AS lead take effect at the same time. Let's ilustrate this better with some examples.

If our units are level 13 by now and we have this...

Paladin (level 9)...38 HP, 17 AS, 17 DEF, 12 RES

Calill (13, Elthunder) would have 32 Atk, 21 AS, dealing 20x2 damage. Kills
Haar (13, Silver Axe) would have 38 Atk, 17-18 AS, dealing 21 (22 if WTA) damage. Doesn't kill.

As you can see, Calill easily wins thanks to targeting RES and the AS lead. Flying is an ability that can have some relevance in reaching opponents, but when it comes to offense itself, Calill's stats give her the win.

And that was just an example. Let's be nice with Haar and put him against something even he can double.

Wyvern (level 9)...42 HP, 13 AS, 21 DEF, 9 RES

Calill (13, Elthunder) would have 32 Atk, 21 AS, dealing 23x2 damage. Kills
Haar (13, Silver Axe) would have 38 Atk, 17-18 AS, dealing 17x2 (18x2 if WTA) damage. Doesn't kill.

pfff Where is your flying now?

Oh, and Calill has another feature. She is h4x against beasts, 'cus she can use Elfire. Let's check it out.

So, target RES + more AS + Advantage against laguz>>Move + Atk.

Endgame...

Funny how Calill doesn't seem to gain weapon levels. Allow me to give Thoron and Rexbolt to her, as well as change supports a bit.

Defensively, if you can somehow prove me that Calill is at any risk of dying you may have a point for Haar, but judging by her high avoid, and decent HP-def plus 1-2 range I don't see how could she possibly die.

Offense. Lol, Rexbolt Calill has moar attack, more AS, more Crt (which can get higher if Largo's there) and targets RES. w1n. Otherwise, Calill is still doing a marvelous job with her 24.3 AS + RES target. There are many things by endgame that Haar can't double with 20 AS. For example, Paladins have 19-20 AS, and there are 10 of them.

Calill also has h4x advantage against dragons, who are possibly the most dangerous enemies, and Haar's flying doesn't mean much as all the enemies run towards you in the first few turns. Calill wins massively now.

Overall I have that Calill is superior because:

-Better joining time, emaning more time to be useful in combat and in supports.
-Better offense, as already explained by numbers and some examples.
-Durability that guarantees that she won't die.