no dropping out allowed

Info from Serenes Forest.

Wow, Artur against Lute?

Both units have similar priorities, being magic units. Both have the access to the same weapons (Anima, Light, Staves). They’re best supports are with each other…

Let’s start off with base stats, shall we?


I made sure to get an image this time, so I wouldn’t mess it up.


Okay, so as you can see, Artur beats out Lute’s HP base stats. Str and Skl is the same, bleh. Artur wins in speed, so he might be able to double a few enemies on that chapter that Lute can’t. Artur wins in RES, which means little because by the time Lute joins you you shouldn’t have any Mogalls left on the map. Artur has a nice, rounded Con, while Lute is a measly 3. Now Lute > Artur in weapon level, but you probably won’t be getting any Elfire tomes until a bit later in the game. …Rsc is what exactly? D:

One thing with Lute that isn’t true for Artur is that it’s not necessary to recruit Lute, and someone (albeit someone stupid) could miss it.

gogo growth rates




Artur beats Lute in HP, Skl, and Res.
Lute Beats Artur in Mag, a little bit of Spd, and Lck.
They’re the same in RES.

Artur - 3
Lute – 3

WTF?

Artur’s HP growth will probably work well for him, considering a magic unit with low defense and low HP = instafail on the battlefield. Look at Lute’s Luck Growth! Well…Artur’s not the luckiest person. The low Res is bad for Lute too. Magic units doing damage to Lute and melee units doing damage to Lute could prove troublesome.

I'm going to keep it at that for now. Better safe than sorry, eh?

"Info from Serenes Forest.

Wow, Artur against Lute?

Both units have similar priorities, being magic units. Both have the access to the same weapons (Anima, Light, Staves). They’re best supports are with each other…"

I chose to use Lute because they are similar. :P Actually, Lute is not getting light magic. It's too heavy and weak, and she likes the extra con and movement from mage knight. What do you want me to debate Artur as?

Anyways, they may have a nice support together, but Lute has overall better supports. She gives Vanessa Anima x Anima, which Vanessa already wants from Moulder, and a Kyle support isn't bad if she's a mage knight. So Lute has options. Artur's other good option is cormag, but by then you are past the small chapters where a flyer could be next to a magic user. Oh, no.

"Okay, so as you can see, Artur beats out Lute’s HP base stats. Str and Skl is the same, bleh. Artur wins in speed, so he might be able to double a few enemies on that chapter that Lute can’t. Artur wins in RES, which means little because by the time Lute joins you you shouldn’t have any Mogalls left on the map. Artur has a nice, rounded Con, while Lute is a measly 3. Now Lute > Artur in weapon level, but you probably won’t be getting any Elfire tomes until a bit later in the game. …Rsc is what exactly? D:"

What? Revenants start with a base of 0 speed, and Entombeds start with 1 base speed. Revs have 20% speed growth, while Ents have a 17% one, according to Serene's. Lute has a base AS of 6, when you count for that 1 AS loss. This means an enemy would have to have 3 speed for her not to double. This means a rev would have to be level 13 to have 2.6 speed, which could occasionally be 3 speed. About the same for the Entombeds in that level. Lawl at that happening in chapter 4.

Lute loses 1 AS from fire as a mage, and none from thunder as a mage knight. that's all she needs with her magic. Rsc is rescue, which a good mage should never do. Resistance matters little at this point in the game, and you shouldn't have your mages tank to where alot of physical enemies would pound on them.

"One thing with Lute that isn’t true for Artur is that it’s not necessary to recruit Lute, and someone (albeit someone stupid) could miss it."

... What? Somone stupid could continue on when Artur dies too, but that's just insane to say in debates. Vanessa, a support partner of Lute's, can make it to the village in 2-3 turns easily enough. Since Lute doubles Revnants, she can one round them, and from 2 range. Besides, I'm assuming we get Lute, just because it works that way in debates.

"Artur’s HP growth will probably work well for him, considering a magic unit with low defense and low HP = instafail on the battlefield. Look at Lute’s Luck Growth! Well…Artur’s not the luckiest person. The low Res is bad for Lute too. Magic units doing damage to Lute and melee units doing damage to Lute could prove troublesome."

Few magic users have high HP and defense, two stats Lute can gain a bit of by being a mage knight. Low res? There are more physical units, and she's already got fairly good resistance. Lute gets more magic, so with anima magic she's got even more offense than Artur. And she has one more level to gain, so she'll get more of the stats they tie in. I also think you mean they tie in DEF, not RES...

I completely agree with keeping debates short. There's no need to type pages and pages when you can get your point across in a few sentences.

I'll be nice for now and not bring anything new up- yet.

I chose to use Lute because they are similar. :P Actually, Lute is not getting light magic. It's too heavy and weak, and she likes the extra con and movement from mage knight. What do you want me to debate Artur as?

A bishop, considering he’s a bit better as one.

Anyways, they may have a nice support together, but Lute has overall better supports. She gives Vanessa Anima x Anima, which Vanessa already wants from Moulder, and a Kyle support isn't bad if she's a mage knight. So Lute has options. Artur's other good option is cormag, but by then you are past the small chapters where a flyer could be next to a magic user. Oh, no.

Tethys and Niemi can be pretty good supports for Artur. Niether of them should be on the front lines and should usually be next to each other.

What? Revenants start with a base of 0 speed, and Entombeds start with 1 base speed. Revs have 20% speed growth, while Ents have a 17% one, according to Serene's. Lute has a base AS of 6, when you count for that 1 AS loss. This means an enemy would have to have 3 speed for her not to double. This means a rev would have to be level 13 to have 2.6 speed, which could occasionally be 3 speed. About the same for the Entombeds in that level. Lawl at that happening in chapter 4.

Okay, so that point was a bit uneducated on my part…<<

Lute loses 1 AS from fire as a mage, and none from thunder as a mage knight. that's all she needs with her magic. Rsc is rescue, which a good mage should never do. Resistance matters little at this point in the game, and you shouldn't have your mages tank to where alot of physical enemies would pound on them.

Resistance doesn’t matter all that much in the early game, but during the late game we can find a bunch of magic users. Shamans, and towards the very end game Mogalls, are common, and Dark > Anima on the weapon triangle. No monsters use Anima magic, which, on the weapon triangle, beats light. The ability to wield Light is also great in the last few chapters and the creature campaigns because it gets a bonus against those pesky monsters like the Cyclops and even those Mamkutes.

... What? Somone stupid could continue on when Artur dies too, but that's just insane to say in debates. Vanessa, a support partner of Lute's, can make it to the village in 2-3 turns easily enough. Since Lute doubles Revnants, she can one round them, and from 2 range. Besides, I'm assuming we get Lute, just because it works that way in debates.

Well, just because she can one-round them doesn’t mean she can’t get hit by them on the enemy phase. Too much moving monsters can damage her and force her to use a vulnerary next turn or get healed by Moulder, but Moulder shouldn’t be down by the villages anyway, considering it would take a few extra turns for him to get down there. If Vanessa rescued him, she could get doubled by the wight that’s guarding the village.

Few magic users have high HP and defense, two stats Lute can gain a bit of by being a mage knight. Low res? There are more physical units, and she's already got fairly good resistance. Lute gets more magic, so with anima magic she's got even more offense than Artur. And she has one more level to gain, so she'll get more of the stats they tie in. I also think you mean they tie in DEF, not RES...

Later on in the game (as I explained before) light magic can become exceedingly useful because of the bonus against monsters. Anima doesn’t have that bonus.

And yes I meant that they are equal in DEF, lol.

I completely agree with keeping debates short. There's no need to type pages and pages when you can get your point across in a few sentences.

I'll be nice for now and not bring anything new up- yet.

I can’t believe that worked loljk

Okay.

Tethys comes rather late Ephy’s path, and has 5 movement. In addition, anyone she dances for will move more spaces away from her, so she’s not next to someone she danced for outside of rare situations.

Quite. Not only is Lute not being doubled, but she is also, with her stronger tomes, doing more damage per attack.

20/15 Lute has 20 resistance. Crimson Eye has 14 might, so a monster needs 6 magic and a crimson eye to do one damage per attack to her. Now, 6 magic is kind of low, but that same attack that does 1 damage to Lute will do 6 damage to a --/20 Seth, and 10 damage to a 20/20 Franz. And Lute, at level 20/15 still has a fallback 67 avoid with a thunder tome. And with a lowly thunder tome she has 33 might attacking resistance, and 22 AS. Wow.

CC? Wut? Not valid in debates, last I checked. Wooo, infinite power ups. And you can still go to Valni if you want. Srsly.

And what’s the WT lategame? Sure, it’s good to control it, but few mages do. Monsters that don’t look like 3-headed dogs all have horrible avoid. With Lute’s good skill, magic, and speed she’s attacking just fine. 33 Might, 67 avoid, and 22 AS at level 20/15 with a D rank tome FTW.

There’s a small bridge that she can shoot over, and she can take one hit, since monsters have about 1 strength at this level. When is healing yourself bad? She can heal, and then kill people. With perma 1~2 range and forests, she survives. Not to mention everyone else is fighting monsters too.

That bonus is tied to being a bishop, which only 3 people can get. And it’s really not too useful, since Anima is already more powerful and most people should be able to kill monsters with microscopic resistance.

K.

[QUOTE][STRIKE]I can’t believe that worked[/STRIKE] loljk[QUOTE]

I’m just lazy. D:

Third post I’ll pull out all the stops, so I don’t have to debate in circles or catch heat for bringing in new material in my last post.

Edit: Ignore the last set of tags. I tried to fix it, but couldn't.

Okay, fine, but Neimi can support well with Artur, because both of them will probably be attacking from long range anyways.

True. However, Light is extra powerful against those pesky monsters. Even melee ones.

Meh, any point I can think of to counter this would contradict myself…<_<

I hadn’t heard that, owellz

True…D:

Healing yourself isn’t bad, but it takes a turn to use a vulnerary and that’s another turn you use. If you’re moving others up, your other units who have higher HP and defense can kill some enemies that Lute should get because she comes at level 1.


*insert other extra stuffs*

k, last post…don’t give it your all

(I’m a wee bit confused… If this is my last post, was that yours? So this is the last post of the debate? >.> Normally I give 4 posts, but whatever. O.0)

Neimi? D: Let’s take a good look at supports now that I have more time to type without interruption, shall we?

Lute (Anima) has Artur (Ice), Ross (Fire), Knoll (Dark), Kyle (Ice), and Vanessa (Anima).
Artur (Ice) has Lute (Anima), Tethys (Fire), Cormag (Fire), Neimi (Fire), and Joshua (Wind).

Ross is lame, and Knoll is the 1337 suckfest, so they are out. This leaves Lute with Artur, Kyle, and Vanessa. Vanessa wants Anima x Anima x Anima from Lute and Moulder, and SS maps are normally small enough or has walls so she can build it. Early game Vanessa is not tanking bandits anyways, so she can spend her time by Moulder and Lute. Kyle is also a nice option for Lute, giving the same bonuses as Artur but having move to keep up and the ability to survive on the front lines in front of Lute.

Joshua is not really great, and Neimi is a stupid crybaby locked to bows until promotion, and not being h4x like most other units. Cormag is definitely tanking with his high movement and high defense (very different situation than Vanessa). Artur might get Tethys.

So Lute has Artur, Vanessa, and Kyle.
Artur has Lute and Tethys.

Win: Lute

Light: 4 (W/Bonus: 12)
Shine: 6 (W/Bonus: 18)
Ivaldi: 17 (W/Bonus: 34) +5 Defense

Fire: 5
Thunder: 8
Excalibur: 18 (W/Bonus: 36) +5 Speed

Light weighs has much as thunder, and light costs much more. Excalibur gives 5 speed to make up for lost AS, while Ivaldi gives more def to help Artur when he’s hit more.

Ok.

I’m very sure that’s the way it is- otherwise you could have a 10/20/20 Ross in chapter 9 who could pwn everyone.

Ok.

Moving others up? Lute should go toward the main forest. She has 1~2 range so she can stand on a forest to hit a monster for an instant +20 avoid, and +1 defense. When she heals Vanessa can attack, and they can keep switching for chapter 4. Then a support can start to build, while Artur has to wait one chapter before he gets a mediocre support option, while Vanessa has 1 good support option already. (They exclude each other for debate purposes.)

*~Maverick~ is confused by statement

Lute >> Artur

Lute come just as good in the beginning, but starts to pull ahead because of growths and slightly better promotion. (Movement + Staves + Con + Better Weapon >> Slayer + Staves). Then late game she stays good, while Artur may catch up a bit. However, she’s been better this whole time, and will retain a lead, even if her lead shrinks slightly because of the monsters anyone can pwn.

dun