!

:rose:

:rose: indeed

Good luck and all.

Saleh vs Garcia

Garcia joins at chapter 2. Saleh joins in 12 or 15. Garcia has been quite useful for a long time before Saleh joins as he has a unique role in the team as the only axe user for some time (unless you use Ross, but he sucks) and he is full supported by the time Saleh joins.

Supports.

Garcia gets B Neimi, B Seth, C Gilliam. Or A Neimi B Seth. tough it's possible to get other combinations (A Gilliam, B Seth, for example) as his support list is quite versatile.

Saleh's list is not nearly as good. Ewan sucks. Eirika has way too many options better than Saleh. Myrrh is mediocre at best, but if she's in the team, Saleh would A support her. Gerik has A Tethys, so a B with Saleh is fine.

On top of having better support options, Garcia also gives and receives better bonuses, due to his fire affinity. Supports is a clear victory for him.

Now, for my first stat comparison I'll take chapter 15 'cus WJC has provided samples for this chapter [Source]and, if Ephraim's route is played, he's not around before. hmm, if you played Eirika's route, Saleh can have C Gerik now.

Garcia. 20/1. Hero. B Neimi, B Seth, C Gilliam.
HP...44.8
ATK...23.2
HIT...52.5
AVO...58.8
CRT...27
CEV...16.4
DEF...12
RES...6.4
AS...12.2

Saleh. 20/4. C Gerik
HP...31
ATK...16.6
HIT...45
AVO...43.4
CRT...14
CEV...16.8
DEF...8.6
RES...13.7
AS...14.8

Okay. Defensively, Saleh got raped. Garcia has a massive HP lead, considerable avoid advantage and some more DEF, while Saleh only has RES.

Offense. Garcia has better attack and critical, while Saleh has speed. Let's see how significant is this speed win by bringing some enemy samples as well as talk a bit more about defense.

Wyvern riders. (10 SPD, 10 CON, Steel lance (13 Wt); 7 AS). Garcia doubles and kills. Having WTA boosts his durability even moar. Destroying one of the most common enemies while not having a risk of dying is h4x. Same story against pegasus.

Mercenaries. (12-13 AS) Saleh doesn't double. Both of our units kill in 2 rounds. These guys are accurate se they pose more of a problem to Saleh, who, unlike Garcia, doesn't have massive HP. Same story woth Myrmidons.

Cavaliers. (10 SPD, 9 CON, Steel lance; 6 AS) Same as wyverns and pegasus. Garcia one rounds and is much better defensively.

This covers the most important enemies, and as we can see, even with the speed lead, Saleh is losing.

Let's check endgame...

Garcia. 20/10. Hero. B Neimi, B Seth, C Gilliam.
HP...52
ATK...28.2
HIT...61
AVO..66
CRT...29
CEV...20
DEF...14.2
RES...7.7
AS...14

Saleh. 20/12. A Myrrh, B Gerik
HP...35
ATK...23
HIT...68
AVO...56
CRT...35
CEV...40
DEF...12
RES...17.5
AS...18

Lategame is also Holy weapons time, and Garm fixes Garcia's one weakness; speed. Enemy monsters are so pathetic I don't think it's necessary to bring them (tough I may mention, that Saleh has WTD against Shadowshot, which is quite annoying).

Once again, Garcia owns defense. The numbers speak by themselves. Lategame, the most challenging chapter, IMO, is Last Hope.

In said chapter, there are several slow units (Fighters, Armors/Generals, weighed down archers/druids). Warriors have an average speed of 10.9, GKs have 10.3,

There are myrmidons, mercenaries, swordmasters, rangers and heroes that neither double (out of the 9 hero samples, Saleh can only double 2) and you want to keep Saleh away from their high accuracy.

Then Saleh wins against the Paladins (Garcia could use a Halberd/Killer Axe/Garm, tough) but barely scratches the Mage Knights.

Offense seems pretty much like a tie, except that Garcia's defense means he is more likely to be at the frontline and thus attack more during the enemy phase, and, Garcia has access to Killer weapons and other fancy weaponry, which is pretty awesome

Saleh may have staves, but that can't match Garcia's overall superior combat performance, joining time and supports.

It's a shame that Garcia's performance during this time is quite mediocre.

5/0 Garcia
HP: 28.8
STR: 8.7
SKL: 7.4
SPD: 7.2
LUK: 3.4
DEF: 5.3
RES: 1.1

How does he look compared to the rest of your team in the chapter after he joins?

20/1 Seth
HP: 30.0
STR: 14.0
SKL: 13.0
SPD: 12.0
LUK: 13.0
DEF: 11.0
RES: 8.0

Massive raep. Don't even try to say it's not fair to compare to Seth. It's perfectly relevant. However, it doesn't take Seth to rape Garcia.

2/0 Colm
HP: 18.0
STR: 4.0
SKL: 4.0
SPD: 10.0
LUK: 8.0
DEF: 3.0
RES: 1.0

Atk Spd + way more common WTA + two chances for a Crit instead of one = moar offense.
Evd + way more common WTA = moar defense.
Thief utility + fighting >>> only fighting.

5/0 Eirik
HP: 18.8
STR: 5.6
SKL: 10.4
SPD: 11.4
LUK: 7.4
DEF: 4.2
RES: 2.2

The same case as Colm, except Eirik trades thief utility for better stats and a Rapier. C Seth should exist, as well.

4/0 Franz
HP: 22.4
STR: 8.2
SKL: 6.2
SPD: 8.5
LUK: 3.2
DEF: 6.8
RES: 1.6

Same case as the two units above, except less Atk Spd and Evd by a little bit but more movement and lances. Clearly better than Garcia.

4/0 Moulder the Boulder
who cares bout statz lol?

He's your only healer for a few chapters, and wtfraeps Natasha when she joins anyways. H4x. Better than Garcia by a lot.

2/0 Vanessa
HP: 17.5
STR: 5.3
SKL: 7.5
SPD: 11.6
LUK: 4.5
DEF: 6.2
RES: 5.3

She can fly, which is awesome. Garcia is more durable because she has to use lances, but she's faster and can fly away when in trouble anyways. I'd wager she's better than Garcia.

Neimi is an Archer, so auto-lose for her. Ross is super underleveled, so lol. He pretty much ties Gilliam, as shown by your other debate.

Garcia is apparently in bottom tier for your current team. Then Lute and Artur join, and they start off a little worse due to durability, and then they gain Atk Spd and it's an lol comparison between them and Garcia. Promotion widens it even more because staves pwn and Artur can get Slayer and Lute can get a horsey.

So...why use Garcia at all? During the time he's there and Saleh isn't, Garcia is delivering a mediocre performance that's inferior to almost your entire team. Not special.

lol @ those supports. Drugs must be legal in Mexico.

Seth: Anima
Eirik: Light; C (19) B (46) A (73)
Franz: Light; C (33) B (73) A (113)
Garcia: Fire; C (35) B (75) A (115)
Natasha: Ice; C (38) B (78) A (118)
Cormag: Fire; C (40) B (80) A (120)

Eirik starts the earliest and they both want each other a lot. Seth can keep Eirik alive, and he gives her needed Atk, Evd, and Def/Res.

Franz is wtfpwn and they both want each other a lot. Both are mounted, and this also starts earlier than Seth x Garcia and is faster.

Eirik is forced all the time and Franz is top tier so he's basically default. Just with these two units alone, Garcia's chances of having Seth are nearly nonexistent.

However, there are two other options anyways that make Garcia's chances even worse. Natasha, even though she is raped by Moulder, is still a useful healer and gets either a horsey or Slayer upon promotion, as well as an EXP boost. Cormag is unlikely, but he's probably better as a unit than Garcia due to flight and Atk Spd.

Garcia is not getting Seth. Maybe 1/1000 playthroughs he is, but it's too uncommon to count.

Neimi is also very laughable, but not due to how unlikely it is if she's fielded, but due to how bad Neimi is as a unit. Being an archer, she's 100% worthless on the enemy phase. She's horrible until she's promoted. If she's used, A Colm is a given, and then Garcia has to compete with Artur, Amelia, and Gilliam for that B. Assuming he'll simply be prefered over all of them is pretty silly of you.

Gilliam is also very silly to just assume. Franz is Gilliam's best option, and Franz's best B is Gilliam. Moulder is Gilliam's other awesome option, and Moulder wants Gilliam for protection and the speed of the support. Moulder's other option is Vanessa, who he still has room for, and then Colm, which is slower than Vanessa and Gilliam and starts a little later. Anyways, Moulder can get A or B Gilliam very easily. Gilliam having A Moulder/B Franz is very likely, so Garcia is left out.

You would have much better luck arguing for A Ross since it's fast and starts out early, and they are really the best options for each other. Garcia's other options aren't going to happen. Garcia's supports are terrible, not good.

Oh no, Ewan. Yeah, he sucks. His only redeeming feature is being a cute shota, and I'm the only judge that matters to, and I can't judge my own debaets. :(

Eirik has a lot of options better than Saleh? Lies and slander, my Hispanic friend! Saleh may not be giving Evd to Eirik, but she's getting full offensive bonuses as well as +1 Def/Res from him, which is nice. Her base Evd is already h4x and Seth boosts it a little, so she doesn't need more of it. Tahna has other options and likes to fly away instead of being near the low-movement-and-kinda-frail-stuck-at-20/0-Eirik. It's Seth's job to guard her, after all. Rachael is ballz, so that ain't gonna happen. Innes is a Sniper, so lol. I find Forde to be pretty terrible, but eh. Feel free to make a case for him. I'm not seeing Saleh as entirely impossible if he's used. Much better chances than Garcia getting Seth, at any rate.

However, she's not really an aim of mine anyways. If you're going to allow Myrrh and Gerik without me having to even argue for it, I'll gladly take it. Thank you, kind sir.

Is this Ephraim's route? In Eirik's route, Saleh joins as a 20/2 Sage, while Garcia is likely to not even be promoted yet. He'd have to gain more than one level per chapter multiple times, which isn't happening when so many other units are better than him.

Wait, lol! You said this is Eirik's route? Wtf? Well, I explained how Eirik's route is more likely to go, so eh. This stat comparison makes more sense for Ephraim's route when Saleh joins with two auto-levels and Garcia actually had time to promote.

Saleh almost never takes counters when he attacks. Ranged enemies like to avoid attacking Saleh since he has 1~2 range.

Here's another point you didn't consider when it comes to durability...!

Saleh can stand back with Physic, Warp, Mend, and Restore as his inventory and be practically invincible himself while gaining lots of EXP without ever even fighting from those high level staves. While he's using staves, your team's durability shoots up a lot since he can not only heal them, but he can use Restore to cure status ailments. He's also allowing you to finish faster since you have a back-lines healer keeping everyone alive and awake.

When it comes to stats, minus your silly supports and giving Saleh none since he just joined, going by Ephraim's route which is Garcia's best chance to beat Saleh...

Garcia: 44.8 HP, 33.8 Evd, 11.0 Def, 5,4 Res, 9.4 Crit Evd
Saleh: 31.0 HP, 41.4 Evd, 8.6 Def, 13.7 Res, 11.8 Crit Evd

Garcia has a big HP lead and a decent Def lead, but Saleh has more Evd, a lot more res, and slightly more Crit Evd. Garcia's case for durability is looking bad before Saleh adding durability to the entire team with staves is even taken into account.

When it comes to durability, Saleh is raping Garcia so terribly it's not even funny. Might as well forfeit the durability arguements now, but that would pretty much end the debaet, so eh.

Perhaps with your horribly skewed supports that happen 1/1000 times you play the game or something tiny like that, but that's not going to happen here. Perhaps you should add Ross in your next post and try to argue for that support, although that might prove difficult as well.

Garcia: 19.2 Atk, 35.5 Hit, 12.2 Atk Spd, 7.7 Crit
Saleh: 16.6 Atk, 42.9 Hit, 14.8 Atk Spd, 9.3 Crit

Looks like offense is pretty raep. On Eirik's route it'd look even worse since the level gap is larger. Garcia only wins Atk, and then Saleh wins everything else. Since Saleh has double Garcia's Spd growth as well as probable supports coming his way, the offense gap can only widen. The same goes for defense since Saleh will gain more Evd and some supports.

Garcia has a ~14 chance to not have enough Atk Spd to double that Wyvern Rider. That means 14/100 playthroughs will give you a Garcia that won't double them. Saleh has a 100% chance of doubling them and killing them in a single round. Saleh also doesn't have to take a counter when he attacks.

In addition to this, even if Garcia does have his average Atk Spd, all Wyvern Riders with Javelins, Iron Lances, and Killer Lances escape his double attack, while they still can't escape Saleh's.

This is when he's a Hero. If he's a Warrior, his Atk Spd is beyond abysmal.

Garcia has decent chances of getting doubled by these guys, and the chances of him getting doubled by Myrmidons is even higher. Nevermind his HP and Def wins if he's getting doubled, because then he loses durability by a lot no matter what. If he goes the Hero route, his chances of getting pwned are less, but Myrmidons will still double him.

But, even if Garcia isn't being doubled, Saleh wins durability. Saleh doesn't take a counter when he attacks these guys. Garcia can avoid taking a counter, but then he has to use a phail Hand Axe and have a high chance of just missing.

Saleh one-rounds without taking a counter and the ones with Javelins like to avoid attacking him. The ones with Javelins will have 8 Atk Spd, which Hero!Garcia has only a 66% chance of doubling. Other lances will often result in auto-phail for Garcia.

Saleh's chances of one-rounding: 100%.
Saleh doesn't take a counter when he attacks them, and the Javelin ones avoid him. W1n.

lol, okeyz. %::%

Garcia's not going to get Garm just to fix his Atk Spd weakness so he can double normal enemies. It's much better for the plethora of better axe users to get it and then have them double everything.

Other axe mains that want Garm: Dozla, Duecel, Ross
Other units that can easily S axes for that weapon and use it well: Franz, Kyle, Gerik, Gilliam
Crap that can use it but I'll mention anyways: Forde

Hmm. Not seeing Garcia getting Garm here. Franz can even double Swordmasters with it, and that's sexy, so I'd rather he take it. Etc., etc.

Then you said enemies are so weak you don't need them, so wtf.

Saleh has WTA since he can also use Light magic.

20/10 Garcia is packing a mighty 14 Atk Spd, which is lol. It won't even double the Warriors ~90% of the time, and it won't double the GK's ~30% of the time.

Garcia has a ~42% chance of having less than 14 Atk Spd, which makes him not double the slowest units anyways. Terrible.

Saleh doubles them at base most of the time.

Saleh at least doubles two of them, so winning offense easily 2/9 times is pretty nifty. Garcia can now only argue for 7/9, and you didn't even talk about offense against these specifically.

Oh, but it does, and then some, as explained.

It's not fair to com-*shot*

Garcia gets more experience, since Seth is not that busy in the earliest chapters. While his stats are better, he's not used as often. Seth rapes everybody statwise, so I don't really mind.

:hmm:

With iron sword and WTA, Colm would have 10 Atk. Brigands in his joining chapter have like 24 HP and 3 Def, so that would be Colm inflicting 7x2 damage. Iron axe Garcia inflicts 13 damage. The difference is insignificant. Defensively, against Colm, the Brigands haave 38% hit and kill him in 2 rounds. Clearly unreliable. They have 64% hit on Garcia, but he can survive one more round. Not a clear winner. Then, next chapter, Colm loses his WTA against the monsters and Garcia can double. Garcia clearly wins. And later, you start to face soldiers and bow users. Colm has a good chance of dying if he fights two soldiers, and Colm can't equip a ranged weapon to fight bows and other ranged stuff. And as time progresses, lance users become more common (Wyverns, Cavaliers, Armors). And when you are playing chapters where thief utility is not required, Garcia clearly wins.

Same case as Colm, but she doesn't have thief utility and Rapier doesn't compensate (Garcia would still be better against armors and lance using cavaliers) due to not having WTD. Garcia>her.

k. Garcia loses against God tier units.

yeah, so, it's flying utility vs better combat performance overall (better durability, WTA more often). Pretty much a tie. You didn't seem to put much effort into this part of your argument, anyway.

Agreed.

So let's do a quick recap.

Seth>Franz>Moulder>Garcia=Gilliam=Vanessa=Colm>Eirika>Neimi>Ross.

At the moment, Garcia is worse than 3 units (one being the Jeigan, one being a healer), better than 3 units and about equal with the rest. This would put him at mid tier, but we already knew he was mid tier.

This part of your post ends with this:

First of all; during earlygame you can pretty much deploy every unit you have. Fielding Garcia is not an issue and as I proved he is far from "inferior to your entire team". Now what happens when Saleh joins? A general overview would be something like this (not including Garcia)

Seth>Franz>Moulder>Colm>Vanessa>Tethys>Ephraim (if you play his route)>Lute>Artur>Natasha>Joshua>Tana>Neimi>Cormag>Kyle>Forde>Saleh>Eirika>Ross>Amelia>Dozla>Marisa>Larachel>Ewan

Seems like low tier, huh?. And this time, you don't have the freedom of deploying every unit you have, and there are a lot more units that do his job better, while Garcia had a more unique role early 'cause of being your only axe user. To me, it seems like using Garcia is more likely.

Jeigan's words of wisdom are "Zero alcohol, zero drugs. Only protected sex" :rose:

*cough*

First come Seth's supports. He gets A Franz. You did a good job explaining that. His other options remaining for getting a B support with him are...

I don't see why Seth keeps her alive. It's not like they are sharing stats. On the subject of bonuses, Eirika can get the same Def/Res and Atk from Tana, Forde and Saleh, and she can get an Ephraim support without trouble as well.

But Seth needs some love, too. What does he want? Comparing B Eirika to B Garcia:

.............POW/DEF/HIT/AVO/CRT/CEV
B Erika...2/2/5/5/5/5
B Garcia.2/1/5/10/5/5

5 Avo is quite possibly better than 1 DEF, and the time difference doesn't matter for Seth. By the time he needs the bonuses, B Garcia is already sompleted.

lol hai Ephraim's route. When you take Ephraim's route, Garcia support is actually faster, due to Eirika not existing. Seth always takes Garcia if you play Ephraim's route.

If you play both routes equally, and half of the time, in Eirika's route Seth gets B Garcia, this support would exist during 75% of the time, making it perfectly valid in my argument.

As for other units...

Natasha: slower, starts later, worse bonuses. No thx.

Cormag: same bonuses, slower and starts later. No thx.

She also doesn't have to take a counter during your phase, an Orion's Bolt is gotten early and she is the only unit who uses it. An early promotion (lvl 13-15) would be acceptable, eliminating her class weakness. And her stats are pretty good. Also, you seem to assume that A Colm is always given, but that's not the case. Colm doesn't really care much about getting A or B with her (the only difference is 1 Atk, 2 Evd, some hit and Crt) and he usually separetes from Neimi due to thieving. The firexfire bonus is more convenient for her, even if it takes longer (8 more Avo ftw).

Then Artur joins later and is slower, with worse bonuses and Amelia is overall a bad unit, who also joins later.

hmm, let's view it this way.

B Franz, B Moulder, C Garcia:
POW/DEF/HIT/AVO/CRT/CEV
2/4/7/20/20/17

B Franz, A Moulder
POW/DEF/HIT/AVO/CRT/CEV
2/5/5/20/17/20

The bonuses are practically the same! Except that when Garcia supports exist, Moulder can get an A support with other unit, meaning a third unit would get benefited. Pwn.

Ross is a pansy, and I try to debaet with some style :rose:

Yes, SalehxEirika is not impossible. No need to argue more, since you seem happy with the support set I gave you.

Saleh joins 20/1 in Erika's route, actually. Well, whatever. Garcia joins in Ch.2 as a level 4 unit, so, by chapter 15, he would only need to get, on average 1.3 level ups per chapter. Definitely likely, especially considering that experience is gotten pretty fast early.

Eh, actually, you didn't explain why Eirika's route is better, so I'll wait for that explanation before countering.

Garcia can do that as well. Hand axes ftw. Saleh can't get more Avo, HP and DEF out of nowhere. Garcia still has the advantage

Well, yeah, Saleh can have Physic (B) and Warp (A) in his inventory, but he wouldn't be able to use them with his C staff level. of course, if you are saying that you want him to stand back and use only Mend and Restore (how many times is it useful after he joins, anyway?) and win less experience than Garcia, I have no objection.

Pff. Even if things were to look like that Garcia wins. Let's say we get attacked by a group of wyverns with 26 Atk (25 against Garcia. WTA ftw). Garcia gets killed after 4 attacks (assuming he doesn't dodge)

For Saleh to survive that long, he would need to avoid 2 attacks. Unfortunately, that only happens the one time you attack during your turn. So he can avoid one attack, and assuming he doesn't dodge, gets killed during the next two. He survived 3 attacks as opposed to Garcia's 4. Saleh is already losing. If you consider Garcia's avoid boost thanks to WTA and the fact that he could use a Hand axe, his victory is even bigger.

Even in your lolnosupportsforyou situation, Garcia wins. I guess that's why you didn't bother to counter the situation where Garcia has supports, huh?

oh, so you concede that garcia wins when he has supports, huh?. w1n. Good thing they happen more than 1/1000 times you play. Also, level lead isn't bgger in Eirika's route. He joins 3 levels lower, 3 chapters earlier. 1 level up per chapter seems fine, maybe too fine considering that units that haven't promoted will get priority on getting kills.

In the chapter we are analyzing there are no wyverns with Iron/Killer lances, so okay, I guess.

And he shouldn't be Warrior. There is not a good reason for it.

The fastest mercenary in the chapter has 13 speed. Garcia would need 9 or less speed to get doubled, and guess what? he starts with 7 SPD and gets +2 upon promotion (he's not going Warrior). He only needs 1 more speed point to not get doubled and he would always get that.

Now that we know they won't double, let's see how much our units endure. If they have 19 Atk. Unsupported Garcia with 11 DEF takes 8 damage and gets killed in 6 attacks. Saleh dies in 3 or 4 attacks (depends if his DEF is 8 or 9). Saleh got raepd

On average, Garcia is doubling the Javelin ones. And when he doesn't, he can equip Halberd/Killer axe and do the job fine.

False claim, too much?

20/10 Garcia: 14 AS
10/20/5 Ross: 14.6 AS
20/15 Dozla: 14.6 AS
20/15 Duessel: 14.1 AS
10/10 Gilliam: 13.5 AS

I don't see how .6 AS wouls make them double everything. Not to mention that since they all have the same role, practically, it will be very rare the situation where more than 1 gets fielded.

Then, the cavs and Gerik. They start with low axe level and will likely S rank one of their other weapons before their axe level comes close to S, probably.

Sorry. Bad wording. I meant that enemies are so weak that posting samples would be unnecesary

You do a good job mentioning that 42%, but you should also say how the other side of the coin looks like. Meaning, Garcia has 58% chance of having 14 or more AS.

Is it possible that he doesn't have enough speed? yes.
Is it more probable than Garcia doubling? No.

What happens when he doesn't have the speed?. He equips Garm, a Killer axe, or a Halberd (against GKs) and still kills.

There's no EXP rank, or else Saleh would rape Garcia even harder due to staves.

I never made any claim about Saleh being pwn when he joins or anything of the sort, so okay. You're the one that claimed that about Garcia.

Eirik is far too low...but I don't care enough about these points to argue them. Maybe in my last post. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Seth gives her support bonuses to increase her durability, and he's near her to shield her. How is he NOT keeping her alive?

No, she can't. They are Wind. They give half Def/Res. B Seth is 2 Def/Res and B's with those other nubs is 1 Def/Res. The Wind pplz also give 0 Evd while Seth will at least give her 5.

Uh, no, it's not.

1 Def/Res > 5 Evd. Pretty easily, too. 5 Evd won't make Seth some sort of dodge machine. That's never really his thing unless you go A Garcia/B Cormag, which is a horrible set-up for him anyways. Seth is more tanky than anything. Having +1 Def/Res to concrete durability >>> only 5 Evd.

Eirik is forced on you even if you take Ephraim's route. She leaves for a bit, but she's forced before then, and forced afterwards. On Ephraim's route, Seth loses B Eirik for a bit, but still has A Franz, and he's still so godly he doesn't need the bonuses much at all.

No, it's not. Seth will have been next to Eirik a mere 46 turns long before she leaves you. In fact, B Eirik will be complete before C Garcia, so eh.

It's not about Seth, lol. He doesn't need supports at all until the end of the midgame, and he has A Franz when Eirik is gone anyways. It's about Eirik, a forced unit, needing the durability boosts that Seth provides, and she gets the best and earliest durability boosts from him. Seth doesn't need Eirik until the lategame, and she's always there in the lategame. If you go on Ephraim's route, she'll come back even weaker and need Seth even more.

Natasha is still a better unit than Garcia, which certainly counts for something when it comes to using someone.

Cormag is a lot better than Garcia and actually keeps up with Seth. If Seth actually needed supports before the end of the midgame, then this point would be great for Garcia.

Seems like Garcia is the one desperate for Seth, not the other way around. Seth couldn't care less. Sexing up Eirik >>> hanging out with an old hairy dude.

"Seth>Franz>Moulder>Garcia=Gilliam=Vanessa=Colm>Eirika>Neimi>Ross." ~Jeigan

So, we're going to put work into something that starts off that horrible, and then even promote her early which nerfs her stats compared to the rest of the team? Wtf?

No. You killed your own arguements for supporting Neimi in the beginning of this post. Neimi sucks massively.

You didn't mention Neimi having Gilliam. :)

Your loss. I don't mind Ross enough to argue strongly against that support.

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=saleh&game=8e

FEA is wrong? Nice. That means his stats are actually better than what's shown by 1 level.

1.3 levels per chapter is kinda stretching it since some levels are tiny and he's competing with a lot of units, both good and mediocre(like him, lol), for that EXP.

Seth, Franz, Eirik, Colm, Artur, Lute, Gilliam, Vanessa...and that's just the good units. Other mediocre units like Ross and Neimi would want EXP, too. Hmm. Not looking too good thar, buddy.

Saleh joins earlier. More must be said?

Garcia's offense is already mega phail from his SPD, and you want to kill it from hand axes? He'll be countering without killing, while Saleh can still kill on his counters.

We're only talking about gaining one staff level in order to use Physic, and then that spawns a very easy A in staves. Not hard at all.

Who cares if Garcia gains more EXP if there's no Experience rank and his gaining EXP is taking it from others while Saleh does not if he's healing?

Gotta fix FEA's error, lol.

Garcia: 44.8 HP, 33.8 Evd, 11.0 Def, 5,4 Res, 9.4 Crit Evd
Saleh: 31.5 HP, 42.6 Evd, 8.9 Def, 14.0 Res, 12.2 Crit Evd

You mean those Wyvies around when Saleh joins in Ephraim's route, right? The ones that Saleh can sit on a fort and bait, and rape easily? Lol, okay. That's the only situation where supportless, base level(in Ephraim's route, at least) Saleh will ever face a group of Wyverns. He has +20 Evd and +2 Def from the fort, thankfully, which allows him to take an extra hit and lets him dodge easily. You're assuming a steel lance on them, correct? Assuming like 95 Hit for them, they only have ~20.5 Real Hit on Saleh, and 3 must hit for him to die. Not going to happen enough for it to matter.

When Garcia attacks with a hand axe from a distance, I'm pretty sure he won't get a kill, so eh. Your choice.

I didn't counter the situation where Garcia has those supports because it doesn't realistically exist.

Nope. I think I did a pretty good job tearing down your support set-up, and then you countered that pretty weakly, so it was easy to counter back. Most unfortunate for Garcia.

That doesn't matter. He's not doubling the iron/killer ones at any point in the game, and most likely not the javelin ones either.

More Atk and bows.

He can bank on OHKOing with cool axes and OHKOing fliers with bows instead of other stuff with lower chances of happening. You know, like Dorcas.

Okay, go Hero!Garcia then. IIRC, Myrmidons are faster by like 2-3, so those have a decent shot at doubling him.

Concrete durability vs concrete durability, yup.

However, Saleh has a lot more Evd, so he can actually dodge sometimes. Also, he can attack them without taking a counter. Garcia can do the same, but hand axes fail massively, and he'll just miss or not kill them at all. Saleh can actually kill these at a distance by gaining enough SPD, which isn't entirely unlikely given his decent growth, or getting a Crit with Thunder/Shine.

Perhaps SPD was the wrong stat to address.

Ross has +15 Crit and 1 more Atk Spd vs Garcia's nothing. W1n.
Dozla has the same as Ross. W1n.
Duecel has h4x durability and good supports vs Garcia's bleh durability and phail supports. W1n.
Gilliam is nearly unkillable and has better supports. W1n.

All are better with Garm.

Unless the Devil Axe stopped giving extra WEXP, this arguement is pretty weak. Since axes do indeed pwn massively, having someone like Gerik or Franz main axes upon promotion is not unlikely at all, and using axes mostly throughout the game will allow them to S that weapon easily.

Oh, okay.

Hey, guess what?

Saleh's chances of having enough Atk Spd are basically 100%, and he'll never require expensive weaponry to kill those things. Wtf @ having to use a Holy Weapon to kill normal things. That's horrible.

It's not about a rank. It's the fact that using Seth a lot during the earlygame hurts other units. He is getting less kills than everyone else, because everyone else need the experience more. Even if his stats are better, he's not seeing as much action.

Doesn't matter if you made the claim or not. The fact still exists. Saleh sucks balls when he joins and there's no reason to deploy him, while the same can't be said against Garcia.

Enemies can still go around Seth and attack Eirika. They are not dumb enough to attack Seth instead. And Eirika can and will receive healing, anyway. Seth's not vital for her survival.

No, 5 Evade is more reliable since the game uses 2 RNs and enemies usually have less that 50~ hit on him. An extra point of def doesn't guarantee he'll be able to take 1 more hit, but 5 Eva gives you a better chance of dodging.

Nah, go here and check the chapter maps. Only the main lord is required, except for the final chapter. That's like saying Lyn is forced in FE7 or something. On Ephraim's route, Seth having a B support>Seth not having a B support.

He may not need the support, but having them>not having them, and it's not only him. If you go B Garcia Seth is giving a benefit to someone else. If you went B Eirika and then she went poof then that's a wasted slot that is not doing anything for anyone, at least until Eirika rejoins. And then if she disappeared for a while, she shoud ttly dissapear for the whole game. She's a mediocre unit and will rejoin with even suckier stats.

Doesn't matter who's better. If we are going under the asumption that Garcia is fielded, then Seth will take him for the more convenient support.

Same for Cormag

Neimi may start weak, but early promotion is never an issue. This is FE8 and units never reach 20/20. At endgame having a 15/15 unit is exactly the same as a 20/10 one. In fact, Neimi is not the only one that may promote early. Having a full promoted team earlier is amazing, and it also means Seth can be used without "hogging" experience, which is high amounts of w1n.

Anyway, back on the subject of Neimi, being class pretty much her only weakness, an early promotion fixes it as she gains melee weaponry and already has pwn durability thanks to both her natural stats and the supports she's receiving. That, plus gaining more move makes her a really good unit.

As for Gilliam, his support is slower than Garcia's and firexfire >firexthunder. Plus Gilliam can get some anima supports from Moulder and Vanessa, and he is Franz's second best option. He's likely full.

hehe. Serenes stated him as level 1. Now we'll never know the truth. Not like it matters, anyway.

Also, Garcia stops being mediocre since chapter 4. He one rounds the monsters and has a very solid durability. Then lance users start to appear (soldiers, armors, cavaliers) and he is better than pretty much everyone not named Seth as he has WTA and massive offense. Then you get a Halberd that only him can use, he has hand axe as opposed to Colm and Eirika so 1.3 levels is definitely acceptable.

yeah, well, nobody cares about Saleh. If anything, Ephraim's route is better. Having the lance using lord + Reginleif >>> having the motherfucking princess. Also, if you take Eirika's route, Ephraim, the better lord, comes underleveled. That sux.

Furthermore, if you take Erika's route, you waste a unit slot on Ephraim, if you take Ephy's route, that slot can be used by someone better than Eirika. w1n.

I care more about my main lord than about Saleh.

Also, this being said, my Seth support argument gets backed up more, as Ephraim's route is better.

Not to mention that killing the Emperor of Grado>>pursuing some *** at Carcino

Incorrect.

Average Wyvern has 32 HP and 12 DEF. Garcia w/hand axe deals 19x2 damage
Cavaliers have 32 HP 8 DEF. Garcia w/hand axe deals 23x2 damage

(Garcia's stats taken from first post, enemies from desert chapter)

Then there's weak **** like Shamans (22 HP, 3 DEF) and mages (24 HP, 3-4 DEF) who get OHKO'd

One staff level translates to 17 uses of Mend, which, seeing how many chapters remain may take a while. Maybe he could use Physic during the last 2 chapters. But wait, even if he does get the level required, should he be using Physic over other units? Moulder da Boulder is your primary healer so he definitely gets it over Saleh, Natasha has more MAG and maybe a horse, so she uses it more effectively, Artur has more MAG as well. Don't see Saleh getting a Physic

Saleh doesn't take experience if healing? Do other healers stopped existing or something? Moulder, Natasha, Artur and Lute all take priority over Saleh.

Oh, so Saleh needs a fort to have good durability? I'm not sure if you helped or hurted your argument, to be honest.
First, Garcia also has access to forts and have a 0% chance of dying, and second, there are like 6 of them, in ALL the other tiles Garcia clearly wins durability.

Then I proved Garcia kills with hand axe.

I'm not sure there are even 10 Wyverns with that weaponry in the game. But whatever, if you face some of them, Garcia can equip his killer axe and rape.

More Atk? No 20/10 Garcia (Warrior) has 25 Str. What's the Hero's STR cap? That's right, 25. And then 2 speed and swords>bows

Myrmidons also have low STR and crappy weaponry (Iron swords, mostly). Even if they double, they take forever to break through Garcia's layers of fat and kill him. Not to mention Garcia kills them in one round w/steel sword, while Saleh can't one round unless he criticals, so there's more danger for him, actually.

Saleh doesn't have concrete durability against these guys. Far from it. The mercenaries have 55-60 hit on Saleh. Having three of them hit is likely; and they are not the only enemies. There are pegasus knight reinforcements coming from the north, near Saleh's starting position. They can easily reach him and attack. The chance of Garcia dying is incredibly slim, tough.

Ross and Dozla: Critical doesn'tmatter since Garm!Garcia kills everything in one round. Dozla doesn't have an AS advantage, btw.

Duessel and Gilliam: durability doesn't have anything to do with using Garm. In fact, since they have so good durability, Garcia receiving the +10 Avo would be more beneficial. Gilliam also will S rank lances before axes

Whoa! wtf. Devil axe increases the unit's chance of dying way too much. It is heavy, so Franz and Forde lose 5 AS (translated to 10 Avo) and Kyle 4 AS (8 Avo). Less chance to dodge, chance of getting hurt, and if they can still double, they have a double chance of getting hurt. That phails. I'm not gonna ruin my Great Knights' performance during a big portion of the game so Garcia doesn't get a weapon. Gerik doesn't get affected as drastically, but it's still hurting him, and he's likely to get Audhulma, anyway.

Summarizing

Garcia has more support flexibility and gives and receives better bonuses.
Garcia has earlygame utility and a more unique role, as well as more likely to be fielded.
Garcia crushes Saleh defensively, even when unsuported and despite his lower speed, his offense is good, as he has high attack and more weapons.
Garm fixes Garcia's only weakness, making him clearly superior lategame.

The fatter you are, the most powerful. Garcia easily wins.

Except you can still see the enemy attack ranges to indeed force them to attack Seth instead.

Seth can also prevent gang-ups by blocking a space for her.

He also gives her support bonuses to help her in both defense and offense.

Seth's not vital, but he helps more than anyone else.

Basically, earlier bonuses > later bonuses, Eirik > Garcia, so Seth's taking Eirik.

37 Hit = 27.38 Hit
32 Hit = 20.48 Hit

Pretty minimal difference.

The best that can be said is 1 Def/Res = 5 Evd, but I'd still take the concrete durability boost in both Def and Res over 5 Evd.

So, earlier bonuses that help a normally forced unit and exist forever half of the time > later bonuses with a mediocre unit that get to exist more half of the time.

I'm well aware that Eirik isn't literally forced upon you.

However, she is indeed forced in the earlygame regardless, and forced in Eirik's route. Then she's forced in the castle chapter and the final, IIRC. She's forced for a large majority of the game.

Bringing Eirik into the final at a low level just makes her a massive detriment and is inconvienent.

She's going to be fielded and used. Sry, buddy.

Seth doesn't need that B Garcia during Ephraim's route. A Franz is already very much so enough since he still has massive stats. Garcia's the one desperate for the support so his suck level can decrease slightly.

That's like saying having 14 Def is better than 13 Def when the enemy has 13 Atk. Seth's stats are so massive until the lategame that he doesn't care about +10 Evd, especially when he has A Franz making him raep anyways.

If you go B Eirik, Seth is benefiting a required unit in the earlygame when your units are at their weakest and then has her the whole time on her route. B Garcia only has a hope of being argued on Ephraim's route, and even then, he still benefits in the earlygame for about the same amount of chapters that Eirik is gone in Ephraim's route.

Easy win for B Eirik yet again.

Nah. 20/10 >>> 15/15.

If someone promotes at level 15, they get a big EXP cut due to being promoted. They're not going to gain those 5 levels in the same time as they would while unpromoted.

It's more like 20/10 vs 15/12ish, and the 20/10 unit is better.

Neimi's start is horrendous. She has a bad start, and yields a mediocre unit regardless in comparison to a lot of the God Tiers you already have. She starts off as possibly your worst unit and has to go through a period of massive suck to be decent. Bad unit.

I loaded up a save file and checked myself, and he's indeed at level 1.

It's also nice to note that he utterly rapes every enemy on the map. :)

He can't even gain 1.3 levels in the earlier chapters, and he's still got lots of other units to compete with in the earlygame for EXP that were already listed, and the list can only grow larger.

Ephraim can easily take being "underleveled" since his promotion is kinda late and forced and he has good stats so he won't insta-die and he can kill stuff. Eirik can't take it as easily, and she's required, so it's better to take Eirik's route for that reason.

You have to use Eirik anyways.

Me too, but that wasn't my point.

It's not better, so eh. :[

Oh yah? Lemme guess, he's got A Neimi/B Seth in that, netting him +5 Atk? Neimi being near Wyverns on the enemy phase is massive phail, and the Seth support isn't happening. He won't one-round the Wyvern without his supports, which are unlikely to happen anyways. He also doesn't double the Javelin ones a lot. That also doesn't take into account the pretty high chances of him not even having enough Atk Spd to double those enemies at all, which were shown in my previous post.

Saleh one-rounds those and has more durability due to WTA. W1n.

First of all, Moulder the Boulder has h4x combat stats and supports frontliners, so he can frontline and fight like a beast. Having Saleh heal instead will allow him to use an S rank tome in the end and allows him to make use of his combat power, which only benefits him.

Mend is 3 WEXP per use. Torch is 5, Hammerne is 8, Unlock is 5, and Barrier is 4. He can use other things to get up to B pretty damn easily in order to use Physic. An A can them come fast from using Physic's 3 WEXP, and Silence, Sleep, Berserk, and Rescue's 5 WEXP. The only A rank is Warp, anyways. After that is the Latona, but he'll probably have an S in Anima before that happens.

If we're fielding Saleh, we're not fielding all of those other magic users as well. Fielding Moulder, Natasha, Saleh, Artur, and Lute already takes up half of your team per chapter, and that's not going to happen. At least two of those guys won't be fielded, most likely Artur and Natasha since we're kind of pwning their supports with what we're doing with our teams.

Since the fort is right there and in range of the enemies and Saleh can get to it before they can get to him, he might as well use it. I don't see how that possibly hurts my arguement.

Saleh can pass through the desert without moving 1-2 spaces per turn, and he gets a minor Evd boost while there as well. W1n.

Ohnoez, one hit with ~30 Crit is scary.

Saleh just one-rounds and doesn't take a counter. Pwn.

Going by the underleveledness of this game due to it's shortness and us not touching the tower/skirmishes, then yeah.

Bows let him OHKO fliers, at least.

If he has an axe equipped and gets doubled, he's in big trouble. There's really no denying that. His Def isn't super great or anything, although he does have really good HP.

Saleh can attack without taking a counter, or he be standing back and healing and have infinite durability. Sounds like a win for Saleh.

Saleh only having his base defenses in the desert is laughable. Just being in the desert alone gives him +5 Evd, and then there's forst and forests he has easy access to before the enemies can attack him. He'll have +20 Evd against all of these enemies almost the entire time, which puts it under 50 by a lot, so the Real Hit is actually very low. Saleh also recieves a minor boost in Def on forests and forts.

OHKOing > taking a counter. 15% higher chance to OHKO > not having it. They're still better with it.

Duecel can use it better on the enemy phase since he won't die, and then he gets to one-round everything as well. How is Garcia doing better with it? Oh, wait, he's not.

Using that axe on crappy enemies a few times isn't going to kill you. You can just heal someone if they get hurt by it anyways since by now you have good healers, like Saleh. :]

You can give Audhulma to Joshua instead since he'll have ricockulous offense with it, and then Gerik can be God with Garm and double the fastest things in the game.

His supports blow because he wants two low tiers and someone that's full almost all the time from just two of his options alone.

Okay.

Saleh adding to the entire team's durability with staves + almost never taking counters + winning durability against all magic users >>> winning durability against melee on the enemy phase. He one-rounds stuff pretty consistently without taking counters most of the time, while Garcia has high chances of being super slow and sucking.

He's not getting Garm because there are other choices for it. :[


Saleh takes less resources than Garcia to be good.
Saleh has staves to increase the entire team's durability and not take EXP from the combat units.
Saleh can kill stuff without needing to be lucky in his SPD growths.
Saleh is a sexy sage that the ladies want, and his pupil is far sexier than Garcia's.

I'm fat and I don't feel powerful. :[

Time to vote.