don't drop out

The court is now in session for the case of Tana vs. Cormag.

The prosecution is ready, your honor.

The defense is ready whether it actually is or not.

When it comes to Corfag, er, Cormag, sorry, he's only really that good in Ephraim's route. Why is this, you may ask??? I'll begin. Now. Not later, now. As in, right now. At this very moment. Not only does he have strikingly similar bases as a level 9 being recruited by Ephraim as he does as a level 11 being recruited by Eirika, but Tana will have had that much more time to eclipse Cormag as a secondary flyer to Vanessa with those two chapters recruiting differences.

Tana, being lower leveled, will gain considerably more experience than the rest of your party from the moment she joins, which is consistently chapter nine for both routes, unlike inconsistent Corfeyg. Tana may get as far as catching up with Cormag's Lv9 on Ephraim's route within the 1.5-ish chapters between their joining, but that's being generous. As well, Cormag is likely to gain more than two levels before the chapter he would normally join in Eirika's route. On that bish's route, Tana will likely have gained seven levels or more in the four chapters between Tana's and Cormag's joining, and if not, Cormag's not going to gain any ground in the chapter he's recruited. Gerik makes his grand entrance, and Cormag can't stand up to Pablo and his magic goons, and probably can't stand up to Aias, either. Tana can at least resist t3h magikz. Why use a unit that isn't even good in both routes as opposed to one that is? Tana has amazing growths, and enough time to overcome her half-Est status, especially with her supports with Ephraim, Eirika, and *plot twist* Corfeyg himself. So essentially what I'm saying here is that Cormag is eclipsed by two other fliers on Eirika's route, Vanessa and Tana, because of a lame and late joining situation. Sure, he comes with an Elysian Whip and some decent weapons, but he's level 11. Vanessa already has one to use, and Tana likely will have eclipsed Cormag's level by the end of his joining chapter and would get it in favor of Cormag. There's little to support Cormag on Eirika's route, don't you agree? Moving on...

Ephraim's route. Why would Tana be better here, you ask??? Besides the fact that she receives the honor of nearly being raped by Gheb, that 1-ish chapter headstart on Cormag allows for her to get started on her supports earlier, for one. Therefore, once Cormag's level lead deteriorates, which no question it will, since as I said, Tana is a half-Est type of unit, Tana is more likely to get her supports to higher levels faster. Tana x Ephraim is good for her since Ephraim has a good affinity, and it's good for Ephraim considering Kyle and Forde get each other, and have potential supports with top-shelf units like Colm, Vanessa, Lute, and Franz. The twincest support isn't really ideal, either.

Cormag's supports could be argued to be great, but whoever said that was DEAD WRONG. Seth gets Franz A. Artur gets Lute A. Natasha gets Joshua A (SPEED SPEED SPEED). Tana gets Ephraim A. Corfeyg's best bet is... Duessel. Not bad, but not great, either. He can't get started on it immediately, since Duessel is a NPC for all of the chapter they both join, and it's not that fast. Hell, none of Cormag's supports are fast. Nobody loves him. He can't get that quickie out of anyone, no matter how long and hard his lance is. Only a few possible B supports, /maybe./ All of his options for support have quicker options. So if anything, he gets a slow support from an old guy. Score!!!

And let's throw some actual numbers in here for the sake of authenticity. Growths ftw:

Tana: HP: 65% Str: 45% Skl: 40% Spd: 65% Def: 20% Res: 25% Luk: 60%
Cormag: HP: 85% Str: 55% Skl: 40% Spd: 45% Def: 25% Res: 15% Luk: 35%

Cormag wins comfortably in HP, and barely in strength and defense. Tana wins in everything else. So Cormag'll win out /barely/ in the categories units like wyvrnz are supposed to raep in once the level lead deteriorates, while Tana just destroys him in everything else. Then there's the fact that Tana has much quicker supports, and there's a greater likelihood for them to actually exist. Tana kills Cormag even in Cormag's better route. Geez Cormag, stop failing.

The Defense may begin its cross-examination.

The defense presents Cormag's base stats as evidence to show why this claim makes little sense.

Cormag LV9 Wyvern Rider
HP: 30.0
Str: 14.0
Skl: 9.0
Spd: 10.0
Def: 12.0
Res: 2.0
Luck: 4.0

In Eirika's route, these stats will not be entirely accurate. However, note that as you yourself admitted, Cormag is at a higher level in Eirika's route! Ergo, any advantage Cormag has with these stats is in fact larger than it appears! So, the Defense requests that the court look at Tana's stats and what level she would have to be to match even the stats that are lower than Cormag will actually have!

HP: LV19-20
Str: LV19-20
Skl: LV4
Spd: LV4
Def: LV20/8-20/10
Res: LV4
Luck: LV4

Tana has a number of wins against Cormag, yes. But there is something important the defense would like to point out about the stats Tana wins in: They are, in general, the least important stats.

First, the defense would like to point out that one of Tana's wins is in Skl. Winning a bit in Skl is rarely relevant, as units rarely have a low enough amount of Skl to make hitting a problem. In fact, Cormag's base Skl and Tana's base Skl are exactly the same! Tana has some time to get her Skl higher, but the defense brings to the court's attention just how long Tana has to get her level up. 4.5 chapters is by no means a short time, but Tana is also competing with several other characters for experience at this point. The defense will be generous and say that Tana may get up to LV12 during the time before Cormag joins. This puts her Skl at 12.2, giving her an advantage of... 6.4 Hit and 1.6 Crit. By no means a significant win, especially compared to Cormag's wins in other areas. For example, his 4.8 HP lead, although this is once again assuming that Tana has been gaining Exp far faster than she's actually likely to.

Tana also has a win in Spd. Once again assuming that Tana has gotten to LV12, she has an 8.2 lead in Spd. So, you would conclude that Tana is winning by 8.2 AS and 16.4 Avo, correct?

Nope.

The defense presents another key piece of evidence to the court: Tana and Cormag's Con stats.

Tana's is 5, while Cormag's is 11. See where I'm going with this?

When using any weapon heavier than a Slim Lance, Tana's AS, and thus, Avo as well, takes a significant cut. The wins are shortened to 5.2 and 10.4, respectively, if she equips even a simple Iron Lance.

It gets better. The defense presents the weight of several other lances as evidence, as well:

http://serenesforest.net/fe8/lance.htm

Note the Wt of all lances other than the two already brought to the court's attention. While the Dragonspear has 8, the same as the Iron Lance, the Killer Lance has 9, taking Tana's wins to 4.2 and 8.4. The Silver Lance and Spear both have 10, bringing the difference down to a mere 3.2/6.4, while anything else takes it to 2.2 AS and 4.4 Avo.

Tana has a significant advantage, yes. But equipping something even as simple as a Steel Lance or Javelin destroys it, and Tana cannot keep her advantage in full without taking a severe loss in other forms of offense.

The defense now shows to the court Tana's 12/-- Atk with a Slim Lance and Cormag's base Atk with an Iron Lance.

Tana: 14.6
Cormag: 21.0

Assume the Tana doubles, while Cormag doesn't. If the enemy has even 8 Def, which is certainly reasonable at this point, Cormag will still be doing more damage. And then there's also the occasional situation when Cormag still doubles, bringing his offense far above Tana's.

If the enemy has less than 8 Def, Tana still won't be winning by much. But if Cormag's not doubling with an Iron Lance, why not give him Steel? The slowdown won't hurt him much, while the boost in power will change a lot.

Tana: 14.6
Cormag: 24.0

Give the enemy a mere 5 Def now. Tana wins by an insignificant 0.2. Any higher, and Cormag's win reappears.

The defense concludes that Tana's win in offense from that increased AS lead is virtually nonexistant, while her Avo lead from her Spd win practically vanishes as well if she does anything to make up for it or even to use a simple Javelin, leaving Cormag's massive win in Def no competition when it comes to defenses.

Ergo, this apparently significant Spd win is worth nowhere near what it appears to be!

Moving on... Tana also wins in Res. By 7 points if she reaches the level the defense has been giving as an example. So she can win in defenses... against mages. However, the defense reminds the court that mages are far less common than physical enemies. Although it is not as large, Cormag's win by 4.4 Def is a far more significant win, because of one key fact: It matters far more often than Tana's Res win will matter.

She also wins in Luck. Her win in Luck gives her 4.4 Hit, 8.8 CEV, and 8.8 Avo. The Avo win is the only one that will actually matter, as Hit and CEV on that scale are extremely insignificant. The defense admits that this win is significant, however, and puts Cormag and Tana on a similar scale overall at this point.

...On Eirika's route. However, as the defense will explain later in the cross-examination, this is irrelevant anyway. For now, the defense will cross-examine the prosecution's other statements.

The defense has a vital piece of evidence regarding this: Tana's joining situation. She may join at the beginning of the chapter, but she's in a cell with no weapons, so it's not like she can actually do anything for almost the entire chapter. She has more like a half to three-quarters of a chapter before Cormag joins, which is nowhere near long enough for her to get more than a level or two.

Gerik "Makes his grand entrance"? The prosecution seems to have forgotten quite a bit of basic evidence, such as Gerik's joining chapter. Gerik has joined several chapters before, in the first Pablo chapter.The prosecution is also assuming quite a bit about how Cormag will be used that isn't true at all. If Cormag can't fight the mages, he can just go to the other side of the map. Sure, Aias is there, but just because a character is on that side of the map doesn't mean they're fighting him. If it did, Aias would be dead by now, and the chapter could be over already, which obviously hasn't happened.

Of course, all of this is still assuming Eirika route... which is what I counter next.

Almost the entirety of the prosecution's argument seems to be based on the assumption that the player will be taking Eirika's route, which would imply that Eirika's route is taken more often. This is not, however, anywhere close to the case.

Now, the defense will show the advantages and disadvantages to taking both routes:

Taking Eirika's route causes Marisa and Saleh to appear slightly earlier, and Innes several chapters earlier, but they're garbage. They won't be used, so their joining time is irrelevant.

It also causes Gerik and Tethys to appear a few chapters earlier, and both of them are good characters. However, whatever advantages they give the team is easily outweighed by what Ephriam's route gives the team:

DUESSEL.

Getting a godly character like Duessel that much earlier easily outweighs anything that would be gotten out of a couple more chapters of Gerik and Tethys. Cormag is also obviously contributing a lot more in Ephriam's route, because if it wasn't a significant difference, you would be debating for him on Ephriam's route rather than defending that he would appear on Eirika's route; another important point for Ephriam's route.



Ergo, the defense proposes that Eirika's route will not be taken, and any points made by the prosecution relating to Cormag's appearance on Eirika's route are irrelevant to the trial. The defense will, however, counter the remaining points the prosecution has already made regarding Eirika's route, despite it being meaningless.

Even on Eirika's route, Tana isn't likely to be more than around a level higher than Cormag, a difference that's likely to disappear after a couple chapters. Even so, both characters aren't necessarily assumed to be used at the same time, so whichever one is being used gets Cormag's Whip.

As for Tana's supports, Eirika has plenty of people she's had chances to start supporting before Tana even joined. She'll have her A with Seth already, and she could be working on getting Forde for her B. Since you're assuming Eirika's route, there's also the possibility that she's waiting for Ephriam to rejoin, since she'll want the better bonuses. Also, if you're using either Innes or L'Arachel for some reason, they give significantly better bonuses. There are too many possibilities to assume that Eirika will always go with the worst bonuses.

As for Ephriam, he'll have plenty of time to start building supports with some combination of Eirika, Kyle, and Duessel before he has a chance to support Tana if you're still playing that route you seem to be obsessed with. On the route that actually gets played, he'll easily be able to build a support with Kyle, and past that it's down to whether he'd rather get Def and Avo bonuses from a support, or Hit and Crit.

Tana relying on a support from Cormag in a debate against Cormag is laughable, and he doesn't want her anyway. He'd rather get the bonuses from supporting Duessel and Artur than Tana's pathetic Wind affinity.

A span of less than a chapter is nowhere near long enough for any advantage worth mentioning when comes to supports. In addition, the prosecution seems to be lacking evidence showing any reason for the speed Tana gains levels to affect the speed her supports increase, as if they exist anyway.

Ephriam will easily get supports with Kyle and Duessel. Cormag is the only character who actually gets used that supports Duessel, so neither of them have any competition for his supports. Colm has Moulder and Neimi for his supports, while Lute has Vanessa and Artur and Syrene is busy not existing. If one of them is supporting Kyle for some reason, it's Forde who'll be left off the support roster, not Ephriam. Fire >>> Wind.

Cormag can easily nab a B support, or possibly an A, from Artur, considering that the support chain is generally Colm A Moulder B Vanessa A Lute B Artur, but Duessel has a better affinity anyway. B Artur and A Duessel gives him a full set of supports, and while they're a bit slow, they're still way better than anything Tana could get.

Tana's win in Res matters about as much as Cormag's win in Def, and Luck affects stats by such small amounts her win in it is worth even less than Cormag's slightly higher Str growth. His higher HP growth may not outweigh her Spd win, but he has one far more important growth win in which Tana has a 0% growth in: Supports.

With A Duessel B Artur, Cormag gets 4 Atk, 17 Hit, 12 Crit, 2 Def, 25 Evade, and 12 CEV.

Combined with Cormag's other wins, that >>> Tana.

The defense has not properly addressed the previous statement: Cormag has strikingly similar bases in both routes despite a two level difference. I present to the court statistical evidence:

Cormag Lv 11 (Eir): HP 32 Str 15 Skl 9 Spd 10 Luk 4 Def 13 Res 2
Cormag Lv 9 (Eph): HP 30 Str 14 Skl 9 Spd 10 Luk 4 Def 12 Res 2

As you can see, he gains as much as he possibly could in HP and at least gets a point in Str and Def. however, percentages say that he has a very high chance for higher stats in every category except for the obvious HP. Let me explain to the court:

Cormag has the same base speed in both routes. In two level gains in Ephraim's route, with a growth of 45%, Cormag would have only a 30.25% chance of not gaining a single point in Speed, and has, at the very least, a 20.25% of getting two stat gains! And yet in both routes, the stats remain the same. The two sets of bases are similar, more similar than the percentages say they should be. This is not a major difference, but there is no question that Ephraim route Cormag will have better statistics at Level 11, and, in the end, will likely be better statistically because of this! So the defense couldn't be more wrong, the statistical advantages Eirika's route Cormag should be much higher. However, since the evidence has shown that God does indeed hate Cormag, this is not so!

The least important, you say? One cannot double attack with consistency without high speed! Early on, Cormag has problems double attacking many of the enemies he faces, and has to rely on the occasional critical from his Killer Lance! However, this is not an issue for Tana. She is double attacking from the very moment she joins your party, and it only becomes more consistent. As well, when one lacks speed and luck, one cannot dodge attacks. Tana can dodge with high consistency with her high speed and luck, while Cormag can be, as they say, "nickeled and dimed" to death since his defense is good, but not great, and he has weaknesses to bows and magic. However, Tana can simply dodge nearly all of what is thrown at her, which is 0 damage, as I'm sure the defense is aware. Low amounts of damage and the occasional high damage quota due to Cormag's handful of weaknesses does in fact add up.

The defense blatantly forgot to factor in luck in the Hit comparison! Luck is a major win for Tana, which would make her hit lead much more than the defense would like you to think, your honor(s). And Tana would indeed be gaining Exp quickly, possibly as quickly as you say, mainly because she starts at such a low level. The prosecution would like to request that the defense gets their facts straight.

Yet again, the defense errs in their calculations! When one calculates avoid, luck is factored in. Tana's lead in avoid, even when weighed down by an Iron Lance, is 21.2!!! As well, you speak of a lead of 5.2 in AS as if it was a laughing matter. It is not, Tana has enough of a lead to double Cormag himself, never mind every generic enemy she faces.

I'll ignore your miscalculations since they were already addressed. Anyways, why would she use a Steel Lance anyways, when she could make better use of the Killer Lance that Cormag comes with in his inventory since she'll have higher critical due to the fact that she may already have a support by the time Cormag comes in!!! That's a 4.2 AS lead, which still lets Tana double attack quite a greater range of enemies than Cormag.

The prosecution should not even respond to this since the avoid statistics are being blown out of proportion since luck was ignored. But I digress...

3 AS is hardly significant. It's no reason whatsoever to restrict Tana to a Slim Lance. In case you've forgotten, Tana still has 5 AS on Cormag even with this hindrance! Tana would still double rather easily, while it's hardly a guarantee for Corfeyg. A slowdown with a Steel Lance would hurt Cormag. What are you talking about? Cormag would have what little of his dodging ability eaten, along with his iffy doubling reliability.

Far less common? Less common, for sure, but with the addition of monsters like Gorgons and Mogalls, Resistance is at far more of a premium than the defense would like us all to think! And when it comes to Cormag's defense win, Tana will dodge far more often for no damage at all than Cormag will. No question at all; Tana will take less damage. Cormag will have difficulty surviving more than Tana will.

The defense seems to forget that luck bonuses need to be compounded with the avoid from speed and the hit from skill to show Tana's actual advantages, which, albeit, are cleverly being disguised here. The real advantages are:



Hit: 6.4+4.4=10.8
Avo: 8.8+16.4=25.2

The leads aren't so slim now, are they?

Tana is in every way the better unit in Eirika's route.

The defense seems to forget one juggernaut of a unit that can save Tana rather quickly: Seth. Seth can take weapons over to Tana with little to no risk factor. This will take a small amount of turns, as a matter of fact. She'll have half the chapter or more to get experience.

As well, Cormag is recruited by either Duessel or Tana. Tana is obviously not the right choice, just because of the boat ballistae covering nearly all of the water tiles where Cormag starts. So it comes to Duessel. Not only does Duessel himself take a long time to recruit due to being at the other end of the map, but he's swarmed by enemies throughout the chapter and often is surrounded by the other NPCs. Duessel won't be recruited until late in the chapter, and Cormag, therefore, will be at the same time or even later.

Ergo, Tana does indeed get anywhere from 1 to 1.5 chapters of experience to start to catch up with Cormag before Cormag is recruited.

I think we can agree that we don't have many units that can handle a load of mages. Most of your army is going to be vying for the experience given by the physical units. Cormag not only comes in later than the rest of these units, all vying for this lower-risk experience. And then there's units like Tana, with high resistance, but also attack defense, which is rare. She's a perfect unit for taking out Pablo's group of mages, so she can get loads of experience, while Cormag has to take the leftovers from other units. And Aias being there restricts things, just because he's so powerful. Pablo uses light magic, which is weak, so Tana is a canidate for taking out Pablo.

Gerik /and/ Tethys far outweigh Mr. Oldbag. Gerik's a statistical god that has better mobility than Duessel upon promotion, and Tethys can refresh the best unit for any given situation. Gerik is far better in Eirika's route, and the longer you have Tethys, the more durable she becomes, and the easier the game will be just for having the option to refresh the best unit for a given situation for longer.

As well, don't you already have Seth? Franz? Kyle and Forde? I fail to see why Oldbag is needed. As well, Oldbag struggles to double, and since the number of units that are effected by any of the cost-effective effect weapons are in a relative minority, Oldbag cannot kill with efficiency.

And in any case, even if Oldbag was at the top of the top tier, he wouldn't outweigh two units that are high-top tier in Eirika's route.

The prosecution would like to inform the court that I lol'd.

First of all, level leads are only sure to dissolve when there's a relatively large level lead to begin with.

And Tana by far benefits from promotion more than Cormag because of the CON boost when she becomes a Wyvern Knight, so she'll get the Elysian Whip before Cormag. And if we're debating the two units, they're assumed to both be fielded. The prosecution would request that the defense stops being a nub. >: o

The twincest support only exists for a handful of chapters; It's not effective. It would be much better for whichever lord whose route you take to get supports from units that actually exist for a decent amount of time. And Seth has Franz, duh. As well, Garcia's a viable option for a B for the great bonuses that he gives. Eirika has multiple partners who have many options, some far better than her, just because she's not all that great a unit! Tana is one of her better options!

When it comes to my 'obsession,' it's simply that Cormag is so abysmal on Eirika's route that I might as well add emphasis. And it's clear that you haven't read my whole post at this point in your post, as I do move on to Eph's route. I've been over the twincest, Kyle has Forde, Colm, and Lute, and though Oldbag has few other supports, Tana is there to build up a support first, and Oldbag has your beloved Cormag, in case you've forgot.

The prosecution laughs in the face of the concept of Cormag getting Artur. Artur gets Lute, Tethys, Neimi, or Joshua waaaaaay before Cormag. His support with Cormag's so ridiculously long, and they are two waaaaaay different types of units when it comes to mobility. It's a quick support, and if they happen to support each other, and it happens to be one of their better supports, then that's their support. I think both of us know that Cormag's support with Tana is quick and effective, and he could benefit greatly from it.

The prosecution has said once already that it's easily possible to free Tana from her cell and arm her if you send Seth up there. And better units are in combat more often, and as Tana's level races up, she'll be in combat more often, and her supports will grow faster. Simple logic, Mr. Ghor.

Not only would Kyle benefit from the high Crt, Str, and Hit bonuses that wind gives just as much as what a Fire support would give, but Kyle x Forde is ridiculously fast, and they're two units with similar mobility from turn 1, not upon promotion. You cannot deny that Ephraim x Tana is a solid support.

The prosecution has already been over why Cormag doesn't get a support from Artur. All he has much of a chance at all of getting is A Duessel. Cormag's supports are weak, while Tana's are at least decent.

Luck, in large amounts, effects stats greatly, and above all, effects a wide variety of statistics. The prosecution has already shown this. As well, the prosecution has shown that Tana's huge avoid win makes any and all defense wins by Cormag null and void. And the prosecution has also shown how Tana does indeed have viable supports, while Cormag only has a singular support.

The prosecution will ignore the false statistics presented by the defense at the end of their last argument. The prosecution concedes that it was a decent attempt at humor, though.

Although the defense concedes that the prosecution's point here is true, there has been no evidence presented to show why Cormag's having slightly worse stats in Eirika's route has anything to do with how he compares to Tana as a unit.

The defense requests that the prosecution refrain from attempting to force worthless points.

The defense has already shown why Tana's ability to double attack more enemies rarely gives her a win in damage even against those enemies that she does double attack while Cormag doesn't. In addition, while Tana is able to dodge attacks for 0 damage quite often, she's certainly not winning in concrete durability. Being able to not need to rely on luck as often is an important trait, so Tana's loss in concrete durability easily outweighs her win in evasion.

As for Cormag's weaknesses, the prosecution seems to have forgotten that Tana has an even larger weakness to arrows due to her weaker Def. The point about magic will be covered while the defense cross-examines a different statement the prosecution made.

The prosecution seems to have forgotten that the defense was only comparing the advantages of Tana's Skl,so her Luck is irrelevant in the comparison. As for Tana's coming at a low level, the defense reminds the prosecution of a common trait among low-leveled characters: Bad stats. Tana's stats are too low when she first joins to be able to fight well, so she won't get much Exp. Of course, even if she does get to that level, the defense has already shown why Cormag still wins, so that point is hardly relevant.

The prosecution seems to have once again forgotten that the defense was cross-examining each stat separately. In addition, while 5.2 AS is far from a small lead, it's certainly not as massive as it was before, and there are many weapons heavier than Iron Lances, as the defense has shown.

Tana, as the defense has shown, does not have supports, and she is far from the best candidate for the Killer Lance. Many characters who can fight better than her would want it, and according to some claims the prosecution has made, one is Cormag. The prosecution claimed that Cormag and Tana will be used together, as well as that Cormag is worse than Tana. If both of these claims were true (even though neither is), would it not be a good idea to give Cormag the Killer Lance so he'd be able to catch up to the other characters in ability?

The prosecution would benefit from actually reading the defense's statements. The avoid statistics have nothing to do with the statement in question, and Cormag's lowered ability to double when using a heavy weapon is already factored in because that comparison was assuming that he wasn't doubling anyway. Against enemies Cormag could double with an iron weapon, he'd equip it and easily beat Tana.

Also, while the Iron Lance lets Tana keep most of her AS lead, it's still definitely not what it is with the Slim Lance, so her Avo will suffer. Even when she does take the Iron Lance over the Slim Lance, it's not a huge difference.

Gorgons and Mogalls? On Eirika's route, Cormag joins on Ch.13. Monsters don't appear at all after that point until around Ch.17, well after the point in the game currently being debated. Monsters have no bearing at all on the current comparison whatsoever.

As for the point about dodging, relying on luck to survive is far from an effective tactic. Putting Tana in a situation that could kill Cormag is just asking for Murphy's Law to rape you, while Cormag can be put into many more situations than Tana could be without running that risk. Cormag is, therefore, more durable than Tana. Actually having concrete durability ftw.

10.8 Hit is certainly far from significant, and Tana only has that amount of Avo when equipping a Slim Lance. Since the prosecution seems to have been insisting on equipping Tana with an Iron Lance, the Avo lead is cut to 19.2, and even more if she equips anything else. That on top of the fact that Tana is still losing by a lot in concrete durability... Tana is definitely not making much use out of that.

The defense reminds the prosecution that Eirika's route doesn't matter, even if Tana was somehow better. Which, as the defense has shown, she definitely isn't.

The defense requests that the prosecution stop making retarded points. How the hell is Seth supposed to take Tana a lance to kill stuff with without being attacked by most of the enemies Tana is supposed to be killing, then retaliating and killing them with said lance that Tana is supposed to use? Tana is definitely not getting anywhere near a half chapter's worth of experience from the chapter, because most of the enemies will have been killed by the time she's able to fight. It's impossible to avoid.

Cormag isn't staying in the corner the entire map. He starts moving a couple turns in, and placing Tana just out of his range to lure him away from the corner makes it easy to recruit him. Of course, this is definitely not a point for using Tana, since she doesn't even need to fight in the first place to recruit Cormag.

not rly

Not only does this have nothing at all to do with the point the prosecution had actually made, but it doesn't work. Cormag may come in later, but his Killer Lance gives him offense to the point that he'll get kills far more easily than any other character, and thus get more.

As for Tana taking out Pablo's group of Mages, it's not like magic is the only thing in that area anyway. In addition, there are several ballistas in the level, not that far from the starting area. With Tana's Def combined with weakness to arrows, she might not even be brought into the level at all, while by the time Cormag is recruited, any such threats will be gone.

Gerik's a statistical god?

Duessel LV8 Great Knight
HP: 41.0 (9.0)
Str: 17.0 (3.0)
Skl: 12.0
Spd: 12.0
Def: 17.0 (7.0)
Res: 9.0 (5.0)
Luck: 8.0

Gerik LV10 Mercenary
HP: 32.0
Str: 14.0
Skl: 13.0 (1.0)
Spd: 13.0 (1.0)
Def: 10.0
Res: 4.0
Luck: 8.0

I'll concede that he's more mobile if he goes Ranger, but that has nothing to do with the time in question. One point of Spd and one point of Skl against Duessel's wins in mobility, weapon selection, and a massive win in stats... Duessel is better than Gerik and for longer. The amount of time Duessel's use is in question is around double the time Gerik's use is in question.

As for Tethys, she'll never become durable, and ~2.5 more chapters of use still doesn't outweigh Duessel's massive ownage factor. If that's not enough, note how much better Cormag becomes on Ephriam's route. He's being used either way, so why not make him and Duessel that much better rather than make a decision that does nothing but make them worse?

Oh, and...





wtf @ this "Mr. Oldbag" BS.

You can never have too many gods. Why else would you use Cormag?

Also, interesting how Gerik's 13 Spd makes him a "Statistical god", while Duessel's 12 Spd makes him "Barely double". :hmm:

Duessel can kill as well as just about any character can, and he's way better at not being killed.

The amount Duessel's availability changes is around the combined amount that Gerik's and Tethys's availablity changes. It's as if he was two characters, pretty much.

The defense lol'd at the prosecution's pathetic attempt to discredit that point.

A level lead of only a level or two will only stick around if the two units gain almost exactly the same amount of Exp. That isn't happening, so it's safe to assume that they'll be at similar levels.

Two units being fielded at the same time just because they're competing with each other? The only difference I can see that making is that Tana will be able to swipe Cormag's Whip.

Go on, quote the part of the rules of debating that says the two units have to be fielded simultaiously. Oh, right, there isn't one.

Still just possibilities. And, in addition, you admitted yourself that Eirika isn't a great unit. Her supporting Tana will only happen if she's being used, and that won't even always happen.

Good job debating off your own support for me, nub.

Lute has Vanessa and Moulder, Colm has Moulder and Neimi, and Forde can't exactly take up all five of Kyle's support slots. Same goes for Cormag and Duessel. Tana may join before Duessel, but when it comes to a support tkaing maybe a couple more turns vs. having far worse bonuses... Ephriam is definitely not taking Tana.

Neimi has Colm and Garcia for faster, better supports, if she's even used. Joshua has Natasha and Gerik, plus Artur would probably rather support Cormag's Fire affinity than Joshua's pathetic Wind affinity. Tethys doesn't get much out of the supports anyway, so it's more likely that Artur will be supporting someone who does. Lute will be supporting Artur, but she definitely isn't taking all of his support slots. Cormag's Artur support isn't that slow, and with Artur having no better option, who else is he gonna support?

Cormag has an Anima affinity and an Ice affinity as support options. Why, exactly, would he take the horrible Wind affinity?

The defense already countered the first part of the prosecution's statement, and Tana being busy fighting more often just means she's LESS available for supports. Nice job shooting yourself in the foot again.

Evade is the best support bonus. The difference of having Evade as a bonus or not is larger than a small difference in mobility. Why should Kyle's ability to move around easier make him be worse at being near Ephriam?

The defense has been all over the prosecution's reasons for Cormag not getting a support with Artur. Cormag gets an A support with Duessel, and has a decent support with Artur, although it's not perfect. Tana has no supports, ever.

Cormag doesn't have Lucius-level Luck or anything. It's not a massive difference, and the defense has already countered the prosecution's arguments regarding the avoid win and the supports.

[quote]Although the defense concedes that the prosecution's point here is true, there has been no evidence presented to show why Cormag's having slightly worse stats in Eirika's route has anything to do with how he compares to Tana as a unit.

The defense requests that the prosecution refrain from attempting to force worthless points.[/quote]

Generally, Mr. Ghor, when one is lacking in the statistical department, it makes them worse than if they had better stats.

The prosecution requests that the defense draws conclusions when it is called for.

[quote]The defense has already shown why Tana's ability to double attack more enemies rarely gives her a win in damage even against those enemies that she does double attack while Cormag doesn't. In addition, while Tana is able to dodge attacks for 0 damage quite often, she's certainly not winning in concrete durability. Being able to not need to rely on luck as often is an important trait, so Tana's loss in concrete durability easily outweighs her win in evasion.

As for Cormag's weaknesses, the prosecution seems to have forgotten that Tana has an even larger weakness to arrows due to her weaker Def. The point about magic will be covered while the defense cross-examines a different statement the prosecution made.[/quote]



Tsk, tsk, tsk.

The defense used a slim lance in this comparison. The prosecution has been over how Tana is in no way limited to the slim lance. When it comes to evasiveness, why is 'concrete durability,' as you say it, that important? What you used to prove that concrete durability is more important than evasiveness could easily be reciprocated to prove that evasiveness is more important. So I say: Being able to dodge for zero damage and not constantly be hit for low to middling amounts of damage is an important trait, so Cormag's loss in evasiveness easily outweighs his win in 'concrete durability.' And this bullshit about arrows can be struck down with the same statement: Tana will dodge arrows for no damage at all far more often than Cormag will, and when you consider that arrows do such high amounts of damage to them both to begin with, I'd want to dodge them rather than take A LOT OF DAMAGE that's slightly less than what the other unit is taking.

[quote]The prosecution seems to have forgotten that the defense was only comparing the advantages of Tana's Skl,so her Luck is irrelevant in the comparison. As for Tana's coming at a low level, the defense reminds the prosecution of a common trait among low-leveled characters: Bad stats. Tana's stats are too low when she first joins to be able to fight well, so she won't get much Exp. Of course, even if she does get to that level, the defense has already shown why Cormag still wins, so that point is hardly relevant.[/quote]

However, Mr. Ghor, once you brought Hit into the comparison, you cannot leave out luck. An established attorney such as yourself shouldn't be making these mistakes. And though lower stats are common among low-level units, that same trait is common among the enemies you face. It's not like she won't kill any enemies, she just won't be beasting it up like Seth.

[quote]The prosecution seems to have once again forgotten that the defense was cross-examining each stat separately. In addition, while 5.2 AS is far from a small lead, it's certainly not as massive as it was before, and there are many weapons heavier than Iron Lances, as the defense has shown.[/quote]

Again, once you bring a battle statistic into play that uses multiple raw stats to calculate it, you cannot simply leave out one of the stats. When it comes to the AS lead, as long as it's 4+, you're doubling a lot more enemies than the unit on the opposite end. The AS lead's only going to get bigger, according to the growths, so there's no question that heavier weapons are not out of the question, particularly after promotion.

[quote]Tana, as the defense has shown, does not have supports, and she is far from the best candidate for the Killer Lance. Many characters who can fight better than her would want it, and according to some claims the prosecution has made, one is Cormag. The prosecution claimed that Cormag and Tana will be used together, as well as that Cormag is worse than Tana. If both of these claims were true (even though neither is), would it not be a good idea to give Cormag the Killer Lance so he'd be able to catch up to the other characters in ability?[/quote]



No, units who may have more trouble getting a kill on higher-defense units due to lower strength, and units that will have high skill, and high critical as such, are the best candidates for using the few Killer Lances you get until you can buy them. Cormag simply isn't that great a candidate for the Killer Lance since he's not criticaling as often as Tana, and has higher strength, so won't need it, as such.

And the defense has only made me laugh with the claims that Tana has no supports.

[quote]The prosecution would benefit from actually reading the defense's statements. The avoid statistics have nothing to do with the statement in question, and Cormag's lowered ability to double when using a heavy weapon is already factored in because that comparison was assuming that he wasn't doubling anyway. Against enemies Cormag could double with an iron weapon, he'd equip it and easily beat Tana.

Also, while the Iron Lance lets Tana keep most of her AS lead, it's still definitely not what it is with the Slim Lance, so her Avo will suffer. Even when she does take the Iron Lance over the Slim Lance, it's not a huge difference.[/quote]

The same could be said to you, but anyways...

Wouldn't you rather Cormag double, if possible? You were doing one comparison, I based it more on reality. The defense claimed that a Steel Lance was a much better weapon choice for Cormag, so that's what I based my statement off of. This latest claim from you is quite an about-face, Mr. Ghor.

The Iron Lance has considerably more Mt, and that's the key. Considering she already has something of an abundance of both AS and Avo, an Iron Lance is nothing but beneficial for Tana.

[quote]Gorgons and Mogalls? On Eirika's route, Cormag joins on Ch.13. Monsters don't appear at all after that point until around Ch.17, well after the point in the game currently being debated. Monsters have no bearing at all on the current comparison whatsoever.

As for the point about dodging, relying on luck to survive is far from an effective tactic. Putting Tana in a situation that could kill Cormag is just asking for Murphy's Law to rape you, while Cormag can be put into many more situations than Tana could be without running that risk. Cormag is, therefore, more durable than Tana. Actually having concrete durability ftw.[/quote]

The game does not stay at that point. As I'm sure you know, time waits for no man. Once Chapter 17 comes around, Cormag will be at a disadvantage. The comparison is Cormag v. Tana, and their initial joining range is not the only point during the game. And... Murphy's Law? In a game that uses 2 RNs to make anything above 50 hit more often, and anything beneath 50 hit less often, 'Murphy's Law' is a non-factor in this game, if it even is a factor anywhere else. 2 RNs put high avoid at that much more of a premium.

[quote]10.8 Hit is certainly far from significant, and Tana only has that amount of Avo when equipping a Slim Lance. Since the prosecution seems to have been insisting on equipping Tana with an Iron Lance, the Avo lead is cut to 19.2, and even more if she equips anything else. That on top of the fact that Tana is still losing by a lot in concrete durability... Tana is definitely not making much use out of that.[/quote]

The defense seems to fail to understand that in a game with 2 RNs used, any advantage gained on the RNG is far more significant than meets the eye. 20 avoid will have you dodge considerably more often, since lower hit rates won't get a favorable RN as often, and 10 hit will have you hit considerably more often, considering that once you're above 50 display Hit, the RNs are more likely to be favorable for the attacker than if you were below 50 display Hit. The 2 RN system gives higher Avoid and Hit units like Tana more of an advantage in the department of survival and landing hits, and lower Hit and Avoid units like Cormag just the opposite.

[quote]The defense reminds the prosecution that Eirika's route doesn't matter, even if Tana was somehow better. Which, as the defense has shown, she definitely isn't.[/quote]

I lol'd

[quote]The defense requests that the prosecution stop making retarded points. How the hell is Seth supposed to take Tana a lance to kill stuff with without being attacked by most of the enemies Tana is supposed to be killing, then retaliating and killing them with said lance that Tana is supposed to use? Tana is definitely not getting anywhere near a half chapter's worth of experience from the chapter, because most of the enemies will have been killed by the time she's able to fight. It's impossible to avoid.[/quote]

-Tana can get right back to the main party easily. She does not have to stay in the cell.

-woo reinforcements

Retarded points? lolwuteva

[quote]Cormag isn't staying in the corner the entire map. He starts moving a couple turns in, and placing Tana just out of his range to lure him away from the corner makes it easy to recruit him. Of course, this is definitely not a point for using Tana, since she doesn't even need to fight in the first place to recruit Cormag.[quote]

Tana's still underleveled at this point, and even if she does recruit Cormag, you have to remember that Cormag's got a bunch of Wyverns around him. An underleveled unit, especially one that simply just doesn't match up well with Wyvern Riders, isn't well suited to recruit Cormag when the wyverns around him won't simply go away.

[quote]Not only does this have nothing at all to do with the point the prosecution had actually made, but it doesn't work. Cormag may come in later, but his Killer Lance gives him offense to the point that he'll get kills far more easily than any other character, and thus get more.

As for Tana taking out Pablo's group of Mages, it's not like magic is the only thing in that area anyway. In addition, there are several ballistas in the level, not that far from the starting area. With Tana's Def combined with weakness to arrows, she might not even be brought into the level at all, while by the time Cormag is recruited, any such threats will be gone.[/quote]

The prosecution requests that the defense does not refer to themselves as the prosecution, and that they stop flattering themselves by thinking that the prosecution's points are 'retarded' and 'off topic' as opposed to their own lacking points. And there's a direct contradiction in your statement! You say that Cormag will get many kills thanks to his Killer Lance, and yet your closing statement suggests that many of the enemies will be exterminated by the time Cormag is recruited. Ergo, he will not get many kills.

As well, there's no question that the main threat in Pablo's area is the magical units, which are easily handled by Tana. Ballistae are always either low hit or low power, so it's rare that Tana needs to worry about ballistae.

[quote]I'll concede that he's more mobile if he goes Ranger, but that has nothing to do with the time in question. One point of Spd and one point of Skl against Duessel's wins in mobility, weapon selection, and a massive win in stats... Duessel is better than Gerik and for longer. The amount of time Duessel's use is in question is around double the time Gerik's use is in question.

As for Tethys, she'll never become durable, and ~2.5 more chapters of use still doesn't outweigh Duessel's massive ownage factor. If that's not enough, note how much better Cormag becomes on Ephriam's route. He's being used either way, so why not make him and Duessel that much better rather than make a decision that does nothing but make them worse?[/quote]



Pheh, typical Mr. Ghor, taking my words out of context. I'll make it more simple for you: Gerik is relatively underleveled, but has amazing bases, and pretty damn solid growths. Therefore, he will grow quickly whence you get him, getting solid level ups atop his great bases, and will basically eat enemies alive throughout the game, particularly after promotion.

And did I say as a Ranger? That's true, but even as a Hero he has better mobility. He has the same movement as a Hero, but receives less penalties when moving through terrain. Great Knights have some of the worst mobility in the game, second maybe to Generals.

In case you're not aware, you get Oldbag in Eirika's route as well, just a little later. The 'massive ownage factor' is still there, just later. However, Tethys' existence earlier is more important. Higher speed and HP, both of which she has good enough growths to get gains in on level ups, make her more durable, and having the refreshing utility earlier is much more beneficial than having Oldbag early. As well, Gerik has much more time to gain levels and become the god he is on Eirika's route. Duessel is solid in both routes, there's hardly any benefit for him either way. Cormag's replaceable as a flier; Gerik's the only unit of his kind. It's far more important to get a one-of-a-kind unit more experience than wasting your time on someone who can be replaced by Vanessa or Tana (or both) easily.

[quote]wtf @ this "Mr. Oldbag" BS.[/quote]

He's old, bag-shaped, and this is a Phoenix Wright debate. ggnore

[quote]You can never have too many gods. Why else would you use Cormag?

Also, interesting how Gerik's 13 Spd makes him a "Statistical god", while Duessel's 12 Spd makes him "Barely double". :hmm:

Duessel can kill as well as just about any character can, and he's way better at not being killed.[/quote]



You wouldn't use Cormag, duh. %::%

Yeah, you go ahead and continue to compare a ??/10 Oldbag to a Gerik, freshly recruited, who hasn't had a chance to gain any levels yet. He's slightly underleveled, so levels he will gain, and in great number. See where it gets you. Oldbag may double initially, but even when he does gain levels, he gains next to no speed. The doubling doesn't last long, while as Gerik gains levels... LIKE LIGHTNING... him doubling will only become more consistent.

So no, one who struggles to double as time moves on cannot kill as well as others. Simple logic.

[quote]The amount Duessel's availability changes is around the combined amount that Gerik's and Tethys's availablity changes. It's as if he was two characters, pretty much.[/quote]



He is one unit, and only one. There is no question that two great units being available for longer are better than one decent unit being available for longer.

[quote]The defense lol'd at the prosecution's pathetic attempt to discredit that point.[/quote]

The prosecution would like to point out that it was a rather lame point, and that it had every right to lol at it as such.

[quote]A level lead of only a level or two will only stick around if the two units gain almost exactly the same amount of Exp. That isn't happening, so it's safe to assume that they'll be at similar levels.

Two units being fielded at the same time just because they're competing with each other? The only difference I can see that making is that Tana will be able to swipe Cormag's Whip.

Go on, quote the part of the rules of debating that says the two units have to be fielded simultaiously. Oh, right, there isn't one.[/quote]

If one unit isn't fielded, then there's nothing to debate. Therefore, simple logic dictates that they're both fielded. Ergo, both are fielded. The prosecution should not have to go over such basic points.

And, uh... Thanks for admitting that Tana gets Cormag's whip, btw. = D

[quote]Still just possibilities. And, in addition, you admitted yourself that Eirika isn't a great unit. Her supporting Tana will only happen if she's being used, and that won't even always happen.

Good job debating off your own support for me, nub.[/quote]

Let me rephrase that: Not that great a unit as opposed to the gods that she supports. Tana's a great unit, just not a god, same as Eirika. Did I make my statement simple enough for you not to misunderstand?

[quote]Lute has Vanessa and Moulder, Colm has Moulder and Neimi, and Forde can't exactly take up all five of Kyle's support slots. Same goes for Cormag and Duessel. Tana may join before Duessel, but when it comes to a support tkaing maybe a couple more turns vs. having far worse bonuses... Ephriam is definitely not taking Tana.[/quote]



She joins considerably earlier, a few chapters even. A C support is possible by the time Oldbag arrives, so it taking shorter time when it comes to the raw numbers matters little when it comes to the headstart Tana gets.

3 Atk, 15 Hit, 7.5 Avo, 15 Crit, 7.5 CEVA. Yeah, far worse, lol.

[quote]Neimi has Colm and Garcia for faster, better supports, if she's even used. Joshua has Natasha and Gerik, plus Artur would probably rather support Cormag's Fire affinity than Joshua's pathetic Wind affinity. Tethys doesn't get much out of the supports anyway, so it's more likely that Artur will be supporting someone who does. Lute will be supporting Artur, but she definitely isn't taking all of his support slots. Cormag's Artur support isn't that slow, and with Artur having no better option, who else is he gonna support?

Cormag has an Anima affinity and an Ice affinity as support options. Why, exactly, would he take the horrible Wind affinity?[/quote]

I fail to see what's so terrible about Wind. Full Atk, Hit, Crit, and CEva are pretty sexcellent-looking to me.

And here we go again, with contradictions. Gerik is hardly even fielded in Ephraim's route, which you claim is so amazing, so Josh wouldn't get Gerik if Ephraim's is the route we are taking. As well, until I see some viable evidence that Wind is so terrible, I do not concede in any way that Artur supporting Joshua, who has more compatible movement and unit type, is in any way inferior to a support with Cormag. Ergo, Artur's support matrix is full, with no room for Cormag.

[quote]The defense already countered the first part of the prosecution's statement, and Tana being busy fighting more often just means she's LESS available for supports. Nice job shooting yourself in the foot again.[/quote]

Though that statement honestly made no sense, are you saying that Cormag is going to be fighting any less than Tana, while at the same time claiming earlier that Cormag will be getting more experience than Tana?

[quote]Evade is the best support bonus. The difference of having Evade as a bonus or not is larger than a small difference in mobility. Why should Kyle's ability to move around easier make him be worse at being near Ephriam?[/quote]

[img]http://209.85.12.236/7533/144/emo/holdit.gif

For Kyle to be able to use his full movement, he can't be held back by a 5-move unit for the purpose of building a support. It's not Kyle keeping up with Ephraim that's the problem, it's the reciprocal. Critical's the best support bonus anyways, it's not easy to get high critical naturally. There are units that actually have natural high evade. *le gasp*

[quote]The defense has been all over the prosecution's reasons for Cormag not getting a support with Artur. Cormag gets an A support with Duessel, and has a decent support with Artur, although it's not perfect. Tana has no supports, ever.[/quote]

The prosecution fails to see these reasons, as they have been countered handily. The support with Artur doesn't happen, and Tana easily gets supports.

[quote]Cormag doesn't have Lucius-level Luck or anything. It's not a massive difference, and the defense has already countered the prosecution's arguments regarding the avoid win and the supports.[/quote]

The win is rather massive, actually. Starting out with a win of 4, and with a growth win of 25%, the win is only going to get bigger. By promotion, Tana has 28.3 Luk, while Cormag has 14.3. The win is massive, and it's a massive win for Tana.

The prosecution seems to either have forgotten that the better stats are not compared to Tana, or is making a completely nonsensical point.

The defense is not concerned with trivialities such as the exact type of lance used. I see nothing in there to disprove my overall point.

Tana cannot consistently dodge, so she cannot consistently take anywhere near a low amount of damage. Cormag does consistently take a low amount of damage. The prosecution would benefit from making points that actually make sense rather than just stating that the opposite of the defense's statements are true with no evidence at all to support it.

Just because Tana is more likely to dodge doesn't mean she will. If she doesn't, she dies. If Cormag doesn't, he may survive, depending on the circumstances. When it comes to whether a character survives or not, leaving it up to luck won't cut it. Would you rather have a 30% chance of a character dying, or a 0% chance of a character dying? Not exact, but you get the idea.

So it doesn't matter how well characters kill things? In that case, you may as well give up your point about Tana's offense, because it doesn't matter either way.

The defense is talking about NOW, not about later. For NOW, Tana can keep a good AS lead by using only some of the weakest lances, while Cormag doesn't need to worry about Wt.

If Tana has better offense, she doesn't need the Killer Lance as much as Cormag does. There is no way for the prosecution to logically assert both points at once.

When Cormag could double with the Iron Lance, he's equipping it and easily winning offense. At other times, he has the Steel Lance to fall back on. The defense should not need to be constantly restating this basic point.

The Iron Lance cuts both abundances, and it still doesn't give her a huge enough win for her offense lead when Cormag doesn't double to matter on more enemies than Cormag's offense lead when he does double matters. Just because a character is winning damage output doesn't mean they're doing any better if it doesn't help them kill any faster.

The game does reach Ch.17 eventually, yes. The midgame, however, does not, so it has no relevance at this point.

Say the 2 RNs cut Tana's chance of being hit by a fatal hit down to 30%. 30% of the time, she dies. Would you want to have a 30% chance of being killed?

The prosecution has done nothing to show why attacks being that much less likely to hit makes Murphy's Law not apply, anyway. The chance may be smaller, but Murphy's Law applies to even smaller chances.

Really now? At 70% displayed Hit, the real Hit is 82.3. By your logic, 80% displayed Hit would have more than 92.3 real Hit, right? Wrong. It's 92.2, and while that isn't a large difference, the higher the units' Hit is, the more the Hit lead is shrunk. At 82% displayed Hit, the real Hit lead has dropped to a mere 5.1, significantly less than the displayed Hit difference, and it's a lot closer to what Cormag's Hit will actually be like. Same deal with the Evade, except because the lead is even larger, it starts shrinking faster.

Real Hit increasing Hit/Evade leads isn't true at all.

Tana can get back to the main party and kill... what, exactly?

There are some reinforcements for her to kill, but your strategy seems to be focused around giving Tana and particularly Seth far more than their share of the kills, just so Tana can get a bit more experience. She isn't the only one who wants it. That strategy only works if Tana was the only character who mattered, which she isn't.

So now you're using Tana's weaknesses as a point that's ultimately for her?

Regardless, you're exaggerating how hard it would be. Cormag has what, two Wyverns with him? Have Cormag kill one and Vanessa rape the other. Or lure Cormag even further and recruit him on land when other characters can help. Or have either Vanessa or Cormag rescue Tana and fly her away until the Wyverns can be dealt with. Or... you get the idea. There are many easy ways to get Cormag that way.

You, the prosecution, made a point, then presented evidence that did nothing to back it up. Which is exactly what I was saying, nppb.

Your "Contradiction" makes no sense at all. You were referencing the point about the ballistae being gone by the time Cormag is recruited, yes? Ballista-using Archers are not all the enemies in the chapter.

Low hit still has a chance to hit, and low power still becomes large against a Pegasus. And Tana's ability to kill the mages helps her ability to survive the other enemies in no way at all. I'm fairly sure I remember a couple Fighters with his group, which rape Tana.

Gerik becomes better, yes. But the time in question is now, when they first join, not later, when he's had a chance to become better.

Same point goes for promotions. No relevance whatsoever to the time only one exists.

A "Little" later? And you're calling Gerik's and Tethys's differences large? Eirika route Duessel is only usable for about half the time he would be on Ephriam's route, massively cutting his ownage factor. Meanwhile, Gerik won't have lost much Exp in Ephriam's route, and his starting position in Ch.13 helps remedy that anyway. Tethys definitely isn't gaining enough levels in that time to make any noticable difference in her durability.

Cormag is replaceable as a flier? He's the only flier who really knows what the words "Concrete durability" mean. Gerik can't to anything special; his stats may be high but other characters make up for it with other abilities he lacks. Cormag is the unique one, nor Gerik.

As I said, his levels aren't what matters, because he won't be gaining enough in that time.

How much detail do I need to go into for you to get it...

From Ch.10-12 (not even that much, more like 10.5-12), both routes have a slightly different selection of units, but because Gerik and Tethys combined are, at that point, still on a similar scale to Duessel's w1n factor, they're pretty much tied.

From 13-14, both routes have Gerik and Tethys, but only Ephriam's has Duessel. Obviously winning here.

Duessel being useful for this time is more important than Gerik being useful for less time.

By that logic, debates like this don't work, m i rite?

The validity of that debate established the fact that using the two units at the same time is never a rule in debating. Going against that fact isn't gonna get you anywhere.

Tana isn't a god? Cormag IS a god, so while you managed to not debate off your own support, you did basically forfeit. Great job, nppb. O:<

A few chapters? More like maybe a single chapter.

What's terrible is that it doesn't give either of the two most important stats. Def is a significantly more important stat to gain from supports than Hit, and there's a similar difference between Evade and Crit. Surviving longer is one of the most important things supports let characters do, and Tana doesn't help with that at all.

In order for you to say the first part of the statement matters, you'd need to forfeit your most important point, which Cormag would benefit from more than the support. Not like going on Ephriam's route automatically makes Artur support Joshua, anyway, as the second and similarly required (for the support to exist) point has also been countered.

Did I say Cormag wasn't fighting just as much?

So characters must be building supports 100% of the time now?

Critical may be important, but just because the critical happens doesn't mean the enemy wouldn't've died anyway. If the RN is in the area covered by the Evade difference, they wouldn't've dodged the attack anyway. Haven't you been mentioning how important you consider Tana's Evade to be throughout this entire debate?

Some units have naturally high Evade. Tana's support pertners do not.

*Points up*

By 20/20, you mean. A level that rarely exists, and definitely not in SS.

All done. Vote, I guess. :P