Hello group,
This is a serious topic; I hope we can talk about it for our common good.

This is a new, young forum. It has grown very fast, and I realize Dylan and company have many duties besides monitoring every post et cetera. What I would like to do is see if we can reach a consensus on how to behave on the forums, PARTICULARLY when dealing with skeptics, doubters, and critics.

A disturbing pattern is being established in my opinion. Some forum regulars have been very quick to jump down the throat of anyone who comes here with a doubt, question, or criticism/suggestion. I have seen both newcomers, and familiar 911 truthers leave in disgust after 1 or 2 posts. What we CAN'T see is the huge numbers of guests who come here to learn about the subject, only to find people being called SHILLS for asking a question. This causes those people to leave quickly and never look back. Those are new potential conversions to our cause, and unfortunately many of those have been ruined, probably forever, by responses that have been over-the-top in attacking others. They will likely become ANTI-911 truth crusaders; when the subject comes up at a cocktail party, the person will not remember all the questions Loose Change brought to mind. Instead, they will remember the sting of being rebuked here, and they will respond negatively to THAT. One person, who could have been an evangelist for our cause, instead responds that only a@@#$%$s think that, and work to change the subject. They tell ten people, they each tell ten.... you see what I am getting at? This is no way to run a viral marketing campaign. Right now I notice ten members and FORTY guests online! Do you want those forty newcomers to read two threads, find a flame war, and bail? I know I certainly don't.

This is NOT my board, I acknowlege. I am honored that Dylan made me a moderator; I will gladly help out in that capacity when I can, which isn't often because I run 2 businesses and have three websites of my own, plus many more I visit, plus pets, house, life... In other words, I am not saying this because I want to "run" the loose change forums- even if I wanted to, I couldn't. It is like this: I deeply care about this movement, and I would like Dylan and company to succeed and go far. What I am seeing emerge is a pattern of attacking people that is driving away potential converts to our cause. Therefore, I propose that a forum steering committee convene to discuss our goals at these forums, and we can come up with guidelines to help make the "feel" of these forums more welcoming for skeptics.

What is the goal? Have a forum of praise and adulation only? That would be a fansite, not a place of activism and mind-changing. Honestly I do not see that getting much bigger, or advancing the cause of 911 truth or Loose Change itself.

Is our goal here to be ACTIVISTS for 911 truth, and work together to get this vital message out to the skeptical masses? If yes, then I am sure many agree that attacking newcomers and doubters nastily is counter to our goal. Do you think we should try to present a more positive, united front for the visitors? I do, and here are some initial suggestions for guidelines when 911 activists engage the public. The principles apply to all efforts at persuasion, not just this forum.

>Be impeccably polite to all guests, even the rude ones. It raises the esteem of the activist in the eyes of EVERY observer of the discussion; in public a crowd of dozens can form out of nowhere for a shouting match. A thread on a board like this can be read by hundreds after the last flame is out. The party who remains calm wins. If both sides lose their cool, observers lose track of the message or worse become hostile toward it. Besides, NOTHING peeves a mean shill like being polite! :)

>Don't call someone a shill with no evidence. There are threads running 2+ pages of accusations and denials-plus-unanswered questions. Perhaps "outing" a shill in public should be reserved for senior board management. (No, I don't mean me.)

>Learn to be more accepting of suggestions and criticism. Experience has shown me that people who gush praise tend to offer NO useful information. The people who criticise, question, argue, and contradict, on the other hand, are a WEALTH of useful information, IF you learn to see and use it. This took me years to "get", by the way. In my own studies and activism, it has almost always been doubters who drop the golden nugget of an idea, point up weaknesses in data, evidence, and presentation, shed light on areas that need clarification, reveal new angles of attack upon theories, and perhaps most importantly, provided insight into the mindset of opponents. All of this information has helped me become a better activist and debater. It is a longer and more frustrating, and you don't get the instant gratification that a screaming match or flaming post can offer. To be a good activist, one must learn patience, because humans are reluctant to change their minds, and even more reluctant to do so in front of someone during a debate. Which brings us to:

>Develop a mindset of benevolence and patience, instead of one of anger, frustration, and impatience. This can be especially hard with this topic- we are fighting against murderers of 4500+ Americans and 100,000+ nonAmericans, after all. Imagine the face of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, or JFK, with their mouth contorted, and spewing frothy insults like a Sean Hannity- SHUT UP!!!!! :blink: Is that the kind of dissonant front we want on our 9/11 truth movement? Is that going to convince large numbers of patriotic, government-trusting Americans to consider our viewpoint, the way we want and need them to? Think of the demeanor of the three leaders mentioned, and consider modeling your behavior after them. :)


These are a few suggestions, and I see my post is running long again. Is anybody else interested in forming a committee to develop a kinder, friendlier "look and feel" here at the Loose Change forums? What suggestions would you propose to make our posts more effective at changing minds?

Thanks,
-Art/Neo

I think you covered it well Neo..

Maybe a small sticky announcement of some simple forum rules..

No personal attacks. (Call the post stupid, but not the poster..etc)

Post source links with information when ever available.

Maybe in the forum rules sticky you might add some of this quote:

I couldn't agree more!!

Agreed.


The 'united front' is going to be difficult to achieve tho, and creating the illusion of it would be every bit as difficult. I for one find some peoples posts and theories to be downright frightening in regards to how they effect newcomers. Firstly, yes, there is far too much aggression and irrelevant personal commentary involved in many debates. Secondly, I find some of the more far-fetched things some of our members post as 'evidence' and 'fact' to be almost as negative and damaging to our group as the flaming. I'd hate to say it, but there is almost a lower caste amongst us, and you know who i am talking about. Should these people be the authors of the first few posts a newcomers sees, it will quickly and certainly portray all of us as mentally challenged/ deranged.

Both of these are currently problems (the prior moreso than the later, since our current admins seem to recognize sincerely ridiculous theories) need to be addressed before this forum really starts to boom. I'd like to see some standards placed on all of our behaviors.

Right on HotDog, but to clarify: I don't think we can ever achieve a genuinely "united front" with such an eclectic, well read group of intelligent people- it is harder than cat-herding. Maintaining an ILLUSION thereof would be impossible, insincere, and would create new interpersonal difficulties to replace some of the old.
What I am thinking is, we should agree on some core VALUES at the forum; once we adopt and agreee on some standards, this becomes largely self-policing, and we can all concentrate on putting forth our various viewpoints.
Can we all agree on values like:
No personal attacks or flaming, even flaming back.
Embrace doubters; some will be won over this way, but none will be won by flaming.
Be confident and thusly calm and rational even in the face of stupidity.
Try to act more like a great leader than a fox talk show host. Impeccable politeness is more important than most people realize.
Add links and small quotes if they help, but please no quoting-twenty-quotes posts to say me too.
Don't say something is PROVEN when there is doubt.
Remember we all have the same overall goals, even as we sometimes differ on certain aspects of this complex issue.

These guidelines offer broad latitude in the varied opinions we all hold; they serve to make the discourse more readable to a wider audience, without being restrictive of particular theories or ideologies.

Now on to the CONTENT issue.
That is something the board OWNERS ought to decide. Perhaps adding another forum or two and good content sorting will go the farthest toward separating the out-there tinhat stuff from the good proof, yet without alienating those who may believe such things. Bringing up the Moon Hoax Hypothesis in a discussion of 911 is a giant stretch for many- even those of us who are not generally averse to conspiracy theories. Then there is the Jewish issue- that has caused a lot of contention. The board owners should decide, maybe with input, if they want that kind of topic in its own forum, or not discussed at all here, then state and enforce the guideline.
It is a lot easier to guide people to be good debaters and activists; it is quite another thing to decide topics that cannot or should not be discussed in a way acceptable to all. I don't envy that decision-maker.
-Neo

Absolutely Art.

No more shill stuff, swearing or even the sh*t stuff. This has to stop. We have to remeber that EVERYONE looks at these forums and we need to be seen as calm and rationale so that newcomers are not putt off. Newbies need time to absorb this information and not have it shoved down their throats.

Art, I am going to PM you with my email address andit would be great if all admins could recah each other more easily to discuss issues on short notice.

In addition, I would like to discuss some aspects of the website itself with you, the admins/mods and the LC team.

ALso, can I make a suggestion now? We could use at least 1 more mod it would seem. If you or anyone else agrees, I would recommend 'Popol vuh'. Keep him in mind.

Good job everyone.

RedPill


How many times a week do you come on the board? How many hours a day/week do you come on the board?

Thank You

New Rules

LC members,

Because we don't always know with absolute certainty a visitors nature when visiting the Loose Change forums, we need to refrain from accusations. If someone 's intentions are not positive it will be self evident in time and will be dealt with discreetly. If you have a question or concern please bring it up with a moderator.

We getting more new visitors all the time and some may not, understandably, want to believe what we have to say is true. And given the nature of the crime that was 911, it is also understandable. We should not give newcomers a reason to dismiss our information easily by attacking them simply because they do not comprehend at the rate we wish them to. We are merely giving them an excuse to disregard ur message because we are hostile and not understanding of their need to absorb information at their own place.

Also, please, no swearing of any type, no personal attacks and no venting and no agressive language.

We know what we believe to be true. Let's give visitors a chance to learn at the pace they are capable of.

LC Moderators


Old Rules
Bull$#!t will not be tolerated. Plain and simple.

Open-minded, intelligent discussion is allowed.

People like Paul Isaac Jr, who do nothing but cause trouble, will be banned on sight. No questions asked.

Enjoy.

*********


Neo


Well that is a start I do not think all of that will work there is a "book" knowledge or the way it should be done the way we would like it done and then there is "street" knowledge the way it really works we have to incorporate both not one or the other...I see book knowledge only so far. This is not a Church or a Library setting or an 18 and under site. These are grown ups that got Ripped Off by their President they have been manipulated, lied to and are being force fed a large sack of Sh*t (War on Terror). There is no other way to put it. The 9/11 movement needs passion it needs an anger to it that is why after 5 years we are still doing this. IMO
To say we can not talk about Israel What? That there is no cussing or calling someone out or telling someone “hey you are full of Sh*t” I think the more rules the worse it is How is that going to work and how are you going to police it. I think the self policing rule works well in this setting that is how you build toughness and that is what we need we can not be all things to all people period We have to decide who we want to be Tough or Soft I do not think you can have it both ways. I think that a Political correctness, big brother...FCC... SOFT approach is the wrong direction rules yes but there has to be some flexiblity and we have to build toughness NOT niceness IMO

HD... you are correct on the newbees posting up "stupid"questions/topics one after another not sure how to controll it but it is a small problem

Also when a fake comes on board you can not wait for the moderator to tell him to hit the road...let face it the oppistion is tough they will try to "test" or promote a lie and their agenda at every turn and the sooner they are called out the better...listen there is no "clean" way to do this that is where the self policing comes in.

I would like to see the regulars ask alot more questions to all those that are new

Newbee: So what brought you to this forum or how did you here about it

Newbee: Did you see LC2 and what did you think about it

Just a couple of questions to open up and see if they are for real and also to see where they are at in their "walk"

I see alot of times just a constant flow of info with NO questions being asked

2 cents

popol vuh...careful HH

>>>>>>coverup is enough to send people over the edge if the first responders start slapping the shit out of them

New Rules>>>>>>Also, please, no swearing of any type, no personal attacks and no venting and no agressive language.

****

I agree vuh there shouldbe a FAQ thread or something and I also agree there has to be RULES...but to think we are going to be all things to all people this SOFT approach IMO I do not think that will work...then we are just like any other 9/11 forum nothing worse than having the FCC on your @ss

I would like to see this forum as more than an information distrubiton center, but to get a solid group of like minded people who are tough who know the truth and believe it...these people know they can win this battle, these new rules look like a church or library setting IMO not fit for the battle field

Our oppistion in this battle is real tough will stop at nothing to accomlish the task at hand....if i post up and every response I got from the forum was hugs and kisses what kind of a forum would we have A SOFT ONE


2 cents worth

No swearing? alright, ill go into the CP and set it

these are very good suggestions. i'm proud to be part of this group. thanks for setting a standard for behavior and composure. when these are set then true conversation and discussion can happen. .. dama

Thanks to RPN/Art for initiating this thread.

What's so bloody obvious to me in terms of social conduct is just foreign to many who are just plain unreasonable and prone to negative behavoir. I have no solution to combat these people.

I may have admin/mod powers but I really don't have the "balls" to use them, and I really don't have the energy to be a watchdog on this forum every day. I wish people would just live in harmony amongst differing opinions. I wish I knew what to do and how to do it in the simplest and most convenient fashion.

Gentlemen, at this point I feel quite powerless to CRACK OPEN the positive vibes in negative minds. :(

What has already been written here is an excellent starting point. Good work guys

cheers

Paul ~ Endgame

I agree 110% with Neo on the need to organize these forums.

I have been a member of multiple internet groups for as long as there has been an internet. The only forums worth posting on, and entertaining any organized discussion, are ones with clearly defined rules and orderly catagories.

I don't know about you folks, but I know what I want to bring to the table in the 9/11 truth movement. Credibility.

Talking about Freemasons, or the moon, or Zionists and the jewish connection, or skull and bones, or whaever else DOES NOT BELONG IN A DISCUSSION TRYING TO WIN PEOPLE OVER TO THE Loose Change 2nd Edition MESSAGE. it hurts us, and our credibility.

I want to be a leader in this movement, that brings it fresh and credible life. We have the beginnings of being able to do that right here. Lets not drop the ball.

If you need a moderator. I'll put my name in the hat.

Peace,

i wish i had the time to organize and moderate these forums but lately i just don't have it...so many things going on these days.

so far things seem to be running smooth. hope louie and everyone are still present.

Dylan,

Things are going well.

The only concern I see is with letting a few obvious troll/time wasters taking up a large portion of mod/admin time when we could be helping legit newbies instead.
Check out the thread I started with the admin staff forum when you get a chance.

Keep up the good work Dylan, Korey and Jason!

Reposted as per LondonEye request :)

Some thoughts..

1 Why are Dylan and co not paying for some hosting for themselves?
FFS Get better Forum software than this antiquated pile of poo. You can even use SimpleMachines forum which is free and not easily spammed (unlike phpBB)

2 I have seen forums which "wash their dirty laundry in public" vs ones that "do it via PM" The PM ones are ALWAYS better. Admins and Mods should have a PRIVATE forum where they can work out stuff behind the scenes. If you dont, it can become as factional as a playground fight.

3 IMHO this Forum is a big chaotic amorphous MESS

4 The Forum Rules need to be clear. Saying "BS will not be tolerated" is meaningless
Here is a suggestion for improving quality

Any poster who implies that somone else is a disinformation agent, member of the Illuminati , CIA member, CFR, Mason will be warned once, then permanently banned.

Get rid of the "Skeptic" forum
If people are interested in talking with Skeptics, they should go and join JREF
What value is it currently serving?
Could you imagine them creating a distinct Loose Change forum on JREF?

5 Decide what this Forum is FOR - Seriously, what is it's purpose? How do we know if it is doing what it is supposed to?

Currently IMHO it is a mixture of
1 a place to call after LC2E viewing shock;
2 a place to argue with Skeptics from the JREF Forum;
3 a place where people research in an individualistic, mayhemic and uncoordinated fashion
4 a place to support activist actiivty
5 a place to call each other and others disinfo agents and question their reliability, motives, coherence, sanity, dress sense, ancestry, bodily habits etc etc

I vote in favour of simplicity. Simplicity requires hard decisions, not capricious ones.
I suggest chopping 2 and 5 from what this board does; I suggest Dylan and Co discussing with the Scholars for 911 truth how to coordinate the potential tidal wave of people who will want to do research and contribute.

My nightmare is that LCFE is a huge success and this forum is just doing more of the same but with 10 times, 100 times the members. 100 times the same JREF arguments. 100 times the "You are spreading disinfo" etc etc I can honestly think of NOTHING the people behind 9-11 would enjoy more than to see the "community" here just collapse, WTC like, demolished from the inside by a thousand small thermite-fueled arguments

Here was my reply... I have also quoted solgrabbers comments too.

We need to move this forward...

--------------------

---------------------

solgrabber's excellent input too...

Final thoughts...

Please consider that since the forum started in Feb, it has had NO major downtime, accessibility has been around 100%.

That must also be considered, plus they have large network pipes.


I have not seen any other real reasons to switch boards, policy, strategy and enforcement is a different and more important issue at this moment...

My input

LE
[cheers]

Here's a positive comment on the current board format... by "Daniels"