G'day chaps,

I hope this doesn't stir up the hive, as it were, but...

I think a certain newly released Warhammer 40, 000 Video Game just did the unthinkable.

I was playing along in Dawn of War II, the other day, (having recently read the Index Astartes for the Blood Ravens, and finding the wording of the Chapter's origins highly suspicious, almost as if the intention was to suggest a 1st founding chapter...) and noticed this background screen (shown before a mission in Dawn Of War II).

http://ebonrai.com/40k/dow2%202009-03-08%2022-37-16-61.png

Now, this isn't anything hard, or any pure evidence, but, the mention of their records actually going back to the heresy, yet not knowing a primarch, does somewhat suggest that they may be a lost legion, since, I'd imagine, all of the Second Founding Chapters would be well aware of their founder.

On the note of the records, the Second founding occured after the heresy, as well, not at the heresy.

The next point I believe, is all but two of the legions had a parallel legion.

The two that did not, were the Space Wolves (or at least that is my view), and the Thousand Sons. The Blood Ravens have been noted as having a high incidence of Psykers in their ranks. Could they be the missing parallel to the Thousand Sons? Considering the Thousand Sons were excommunicated, and the Blood Ravens are loyalist... it may possibly be one of the missing legions.

What do you all think?

Disclaimer: This, as anything relating to the lost legions is mostly conjecture, though the screenshot above is very interesting. This post is not intended to offend, or stir up any trouble, merely to be informative. Thank you for reading.

Yeah it is funny about that mention,it does bring up some suspisions
about them particularly about the missing records and the Unknown Primarch.
You maybe on to something.... ;) :)

Great first post!

First of all, just to say don't be afraid of being shot down for voicing your ideas. Most of us are pretty friendly (with the exception of Shroudfilm, Iacton, Mal, BC Basilus, Anodyr, Vred, Magos, RS, Dorn, Yvraith, Gagoc and Vespasian) - this ain't world of warcraft forums! ;)

I have to say I read the same loading screen, and almost spat out the lentil and bacon soup I was eating at the time!

But, there is a number of ways this could be interpreted. First of all, regarding 'not knowing their founding primarch' its notable that many of the second founding legions still hold their original primarch before the founding in great esteem. So, the Crimson Fists and Black Templars still regard Dorn as their founding father (remembering of course that the 1st captain of the Imp. Fists, Sigusmund, went on to become Chapter master of the Black Templars).

Secondly, in the Dawn of War book, apparently there is more than a passing hint that the Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons gene stock. This would explain a number of things in that loading screen - All records of the traitor legions were officially destroyed following the heresy, and so they would not know their Primarch. Also, like the Thousand Sons, the Blood Ravens share a mutation that means they have a higher than normal amount of psychic mutation.

However, this doesn't answer how the Blood Ravens were allowed to exist in this case. So many steps were taken to ensure that the Heresy could not happen again (such as the breaking up of legions, the army and navy etc.) as well as absolute intolerance for impurity laid out in the Codex Astartes that I can't imagine the 'seed' of Magnus' legion would be allowed to survive.

Having said this, the circumstances in which the TS turned against the Emporer were unique, and to an extent they were victims. Magnus only tried to do good at every turn, yet by circumstance they ended up with their homeworld destroyed and Magnus inadvertantly ruined the Emporer's plans on earth. I guess you could argue that, if they were monitored closely and given a better environment, the powers presented by the TS genestock would be to much benfit to the Imperium to just destroy.

How this has come about? It would certainly make an interesting story (although I'm not prepared to read D.O.W. 2 to find out :P )

Interesting thoughts though, be good to see if anyone has any more information on this they think they can add?

I too would like to saya great first post!
Can't wait to see what you can bring to this site.
Now back on topic I'll probably get those books
and find out more.It is worthy to keep it as a good topic,
Has the Imperium used the Traitor Genes any where else?Is the time locked stasis on the geneseed of the Traitor genes off now?
If the Blood ravens are from the 1,000 sons genes?
Who else agrees? ;)

that is a great point
i can see little to no holes in this

I doubt that the Blood Ravens were one of the missing legions. The hints that have been made in the Horus Heresy series suggest that the two missing Legions are entirely lost to the Imperium by the time of the Heresy, so it is hard to see how one of them could 'reappear' as a loyalist Chapter later on.

However, the theory that they are either a loyalist section of the Thousand Sons legion, or founded with Thousand Sons Geneseed, is certainly a popular one. The Dawn of War books, I am reliably informed, include many hints to that effect, such as Arhiman of the TS mentioning that he knew their first Chapter Master personally. They are similar in the use of Librarians and respect for knowledge as well. GW are unlikely to ever confirm it 100%, but certainly they have strongly hinted there is a link of some kind.

Of course, there are a couple of problems with the theory. First of all, an entire chapter formed of marines from a traitor legion is not really something the Imperium would be keen to found due to doubts over their loyalties. Using traitor geneseed might be more likely - it is rumoured that the 'Cursed Founding' used geneseed from the traitor legions for example. Something to bear in mind is that 'the great civil war' from the quote could apply to the Age of Apostacy rather than the Horus Heresy, and that a Chapter could have records going back many millenia before their actual founding - although historical knowledge is not a popular study for much of the Imperium, certainly it would be valued by a Chapter like the Blood Ravens.

In addition, the Index Astartes suggested that the reason the Blood Ravens have high numbers of psykers is because they do their best to recruit aspirants with psychic powers rather than being due to their geneseed as was the case with the Thousand Sons - indeed Blood Raven geneseed is noted as being stable, despite being tested heavily by the Imperium due to concerns over their numbers of Librarians. In contrast, the Thousand Sons had unstable geneseed that lead to large amounts of 'spontaneous psychic mutation' (i.e. aspirants developing psychic powers when implanted with the geneseed).

So, the theory certaily has plenty to support it, but there are problems as well.

This thread might be of interest for the more in-depth discussion about the Lost Legions.

Obviously anything to do with the Lost Legions is open to rampant speculation and prone to being torn to bits by people more knowledgeable than myself, but I think it is possible that the Blood Ravens are a lost psychic Legion. Perhaps they are the counterpart to the TS as kaelisebonrai suggested. The Emperor may have wiped all records of them after the entire legion was lost in the warp to forget because it was so heartwrenching for Him to remember them. I know that there is a huge hole in this theory because it does not explain why they have no records themselves, but...the warp did it?

Thank you everyone for the lovely responses, I have to say, the other possibilities in the background of the Blood Ravens does also point to their origin being from Magnus, so, yes, there is both support for my theory, and problems with it, in addition.

With reference to other traitor genestocks, I believe that a couple of others have (possibly) used traitor stock, I seem to remember a chapter using Death Guard stock, as well.

The "great civil war" could indeed be the Age of Apostasy, as well.

I believe one of the older references to the lost legions mentions the records were expunged "following the Horus Heresy" though, I can't remember the source for that quote. I had thought it was from the 2nd Edition Rules (specifically Codex Imperialis), however, I looked that over the other day, and it wasn't in that one.

I just had a look, and it is in the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, the line "Unknown - All Records destroyed following the Horus Heresy" listed for the second and eleventh legions.

So, with this in mind, it could be possible that the two lost legions could be of a nature that the Imperium was not fond of, and the Emperor had nothing to do with their removal. Noting that the Imperium does not typically approve of Psykers, a hypothetical psyker legion, whether by geneseed or recruitment, could be the target of a purge, of some point. Noting that while there are parallels in the legions, no two legions are exactly alike. Each has different reasons for who they are, and why they are what they are.

Just a few thoughts and notes on the subject. =)

I agree with the above posters.

I have read that in creating the Blood Ravens, THQ took an 'average' of the Blood Angels and the Raven Guard in terms of name and symbol. I'm uncertain how much of the fluff in the games was directly written by GW and how much was written by THQ designers--I doubt they're supposed to be a First Founding Legion (given GW not wanting to reveal the mystery, why would they let a third party?) and the 'civil war' comments and such could be clumsy wording on the part of those at THQ not so familiar with the background.

Of course, I could be wrong, or have misunderstood the role of THQ in the game's plot.

I echo the comments that it seems possible they were a loyalist segment of the Thousand Sons, though, whose early records have been purged because of the Heresy.

@Magos, I believe the official word on licensed fiction/products is that they are, regardless of origin, Canon. Which is a change from GW's stance in the past, but, I believe it is how they take it, at the present.

On the topic of The Blood Ravens being directly founded ala Second founding by members of the Thousand Sons, I'd say this is highly unlikely, if not near impossible.

For one, the Thousand Sons were damned by their use of psykers, and warp tainted magicks, and then, doubly so for their part in the heresy. For the other, The Blood Ravens are regularly checked for signs of mutation, and I'd imagine their continued existance is dependant on their passing those checks without many signs of mutation, something which the Thousand Sons' gene-seed is full of, and would likely be still heavily mutating.

If they were, say, founded in the Cursed Founding, then, it is entirely possible there were experiments done on the geneseed, to slow the mutation, but, second founding? I honestly don't believe that they'd be from Magnus' Legion, in the Second Founding.

On a much lighter note:



My mock up of a possible pre-heresy blood ravens.

There were a couple of Cursed Founding chapters where it was suggested (although not confirmed) that they used traitor stock - the Sons of Anateus were hinted to use Death Guard stock, and the Minotaurs were possible World Eater stock. Still, just hints, of course. There ware also hints that the eventual aim of the Cursed Founding was to replicate the Emperors work on the Primarchs themselves rather than merely create new marines. Naughty renegade techpriests! :D

Actually re-reading it, I'm increasingly sure this is what it refers to. After all, it says the Blood Ravens records only go back to the 'great civil war' - the only seems out of place if it actually refers to the Horus Heresy, seeing as the First Founding Legions alone have histories that go back further. I seem to recall the Blood Ravens Index Astartes stated their records began at the Age of Apostacy as well, but I can't be certain - it is no longer online since the GW website 'update'.

This is old background now. The Collected Visions book and the Heresy novels have made it clear that their records had been exunged before the Heresy broke out.

Actually, they have a series of Black Library novels about them and an Index Astartes article, so we can assume they are fully 'official' in terms of their mysterious background and the hints of their origins (most of which come from the novels, particularly the Thousand Sons links).

sorry for the necro :P

I always had the impression that they are not one of the lost but rather a mix of several legions but most of them from the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons.

nr.1: They where created after the heresy from the gene seed of several Legions most prominent the Thousand Sons. This could have happened by accident or intentional. (Wasnt the TS gene seed relative stable ecxept for the high amount of psychers until they got into the Tzeentchi thing?)

nr.2: They where formed arround the remaining loyalists from the various traitor legions.

I realy hope they are not one of the lost but thats just me ;) I never liked them.


Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt there a short story in one of the 2nd edition books from the box about the vaults of the emperor and that there are still the original gene seeds of all 20 legions/Primarchs stored in stasis fields but with the death of the Emperor none will ever see them again?

I had the impression there was such a story and had my mind run wild about the idea what would happen if someone would use it to rebuild the Primachs. I was even back then in the 90s a Pre Heresy Fan :lol:

Not at all. The Index Astartes article says their geneseed was highly unstable, and the entire Legion was in danger of being forced to disband before Magnus was discovered due to the large numbers who displayed psychic abilities which they were unable to control. In adition, a 'significant percentage' were prone to physical mutation as well.

In contrast, the Blood Raven's geneseed is noted as being stable, and their large numbers of Librarians are a result of their recruiting practices (recruiting from worlds with high numbers of psykers and so on) rather than the nature of their geneseed.

I certainly seem to remember background that the geneseed for all the original Legions was still stored in stasis vaults on Terra. Can't remember where unfortunately.

ah yes right should have remembered that. Well then my bet goes towards the Word Bearers. They share their "search of old tomes and knowledge" but again this just could have other reasons.

The stored geneseed could explain the "Will be back in a few millenia" of all primarchs.. what if not the originals but some kind of clones would return?