Right guys, in response to our recently changed policy on spoilers... here is a single place to discuss Fallen Angels without fear of spoiling it for those who haven't yet gotten into it! :D

Please only discuss the book here for now, until everyone has had a chance to read it.

Obviously this thread will contain spoilers, so if you want to keep it all secret that just don't read it!
Free and open discussion of the content will be allowed after the official BL release date in July.

Well, to begin - I really thought Mike Lee did a good job of picking up the patchy first novel and running with it. I particularly liked the seamless join he made with the first few chapters, beginning IMMEDIATELY after Descent of Angels.

So what did you all think? I for one am tempted to make up some PH Dark Angels now... sigh... :rolleyes:

Right straight to it!

So did the Lion give Perturabo the siege machines as he knew Perturabo was with Horus as he said 'make sure they are put to good use'.

Did the Lion plan to have his own rebellion if he was not made the next Warmaster?

Why did the Lion not want the Emperor to know why he was at the Forge World surely the Emperor would have been glad with the FW being preserved?

I think the Lion himself was on the cusp of his own rebellion. He sas he does was he does for the Imperium he does not say for the Emperor!

Basically, I think the Lion is a very naughty boy.

Mjol

I got the impression he thought that Perturabo was a Loyalist and so giving them to him was just a huge mistake, rather than an act of treason? At this point the Drop Site Massacre had not occurred, so I don't think anyone knew that Perturabo had joined Horus.

I agree that the Lion wanted power, but think the novel clears up that he's not (at this stage, anyway) a traitor and that Luther is on the road to Chaos, at least.

I think the novel strongly suggests that their Cypher is the same as ours (dual pistols, which is noted as being a difference from the previous Cypher). I am not sure what his motives were. I don't think I fully understand what everyone's hidden agenda is, given the finale suggesting that the 'Terran Sorcerors' might have actually been trying to banish the Daemon rather than free it? If Cypher was picked by the Lion to be loyal to him, why does he appear to be loyal to Luther, instead--unless the Lion was trying to make sure the Terrans would fail to remove the taint, and thus the Lion wants Caliban destroyed?

Another point to discuss--given the Ouroboros being a symbol that (at some point at least) appeared on the Thousand Sons, is the taint of Caliban Tzeentchian in nature?

Some interesting points there!

Overall, if I was going to be brutally honest, I found this one of the more dissapointing HH novels. It wasn't anything specficially to do with the literary standard (which wasn't good, come on anyone who has ever read any of the forgotten realms novels is hardened to this kind of thing), but rather it ended that whole 'was the Lion a traitor?' question which has been going on for years since Angels of Darkness in a rather flat and uninspiring manner.

Concerning the end, I have to agree with Magos - although the Lion came accross as very ambitious (thoughts of being the new warmaster etc.) and might actually have acted in a similar manner to Horus had he been in his shoes (it shows the nature of some of the Primarchs), his offer of the war machines to Perturabo comes accross as a strikingly bad measure of the situation rather than his own bid for power - this is supported earlier on in the novel by Nemeil realising that really his Primarch, though a tactical genius, is not really a people person and finds it difficult to gauge their intent.

My interest was piqued when, like the Space Wolves short story in Tales of Heresy, we start seeing some of the negative effects of the Crusade on Caliban. Effort is made to point out that, while yes perhaps this massive crusade is necessary for the survival of mankind, little stock seems to have been placed in what is being destroyed as a result - in this case, the culture and history of Caliban. But, rather than having this as a meaningful explanation for why Luther would want to seperate from the Imperium, once again they seem to have plumped for the 'lets just blame chaos' card - obviously any kind of meaningful diatribe is not allowed to exist within the 40k universe, and so to keep things firmly in line with a comic book, it looks like Luther is going to fall to chaos after all, in the same manner as every single other mortal in 40k history who has ever tried to dabble in its mysteries.

Concerning Cypher, I think its likely that he must have already fallen to chaos some time previously. As a member of the Knights of Lupus, he had access to all the arcane books of the order - he would have a vested interest in wanting the demons to cross over, and so tried his upmost to stop Zaheriel from letting Luther know of the catastrophe occuring - also, Luther being locked up with those books for so long was only ever going to produce one possible outcome. It would also explain how the same Cypher is seemingly still alive in the 41st millenium, barring any weird time jumps such as that which happened to Astelan.

Well I had heard that Cypher never fell to chaos, and that very few of the Fallen Angels ever did.

Cypher simply has hidden goals and agendas that differ from those of the Imperium and he is seen as a traitor as a result. Some people think that he wants to achieve the Emperor's forgiveness for the Dark Angels Chapter by presenting the sword of the Lion to him.

Haven't read the story yet, but looking at Pacifics comments, I don't think I want to...

KHAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNN! Mate, its only my opinion. if I had listened to what pretty much everyone was saying about Fulgrim when that was released I would never have read it, which would have been a shame as it turned out to be my favourite HH book so far...

For a start it is much better than the first Dark Angels HH book. Personally it was one of my favourites outside of the opening sequence to the heresy (Horus Rising through Fulgrim).

:D

Hey Pacific!!

Don't worry, it's not like I'm mad that it's not a good story. I kind of expected it.... Its just I don't think much good has come out of the Dark Angels part of the HH series. I mean I 'read' the first, which basically means I didn't like it all that much. Such a good legion to go sooooo wrong in the stories...

I finished it today (got it yesterday) and its better then the first DA novel.
It does not push Fulgrim as my favourite HH novel from the throne.

It has the same weak points as most HH novels IMHO. The explanations for the hows are too flat for my taste.

An extra thought (bearing in mind I've had about 6 hours sleep over the weekend, and have the mental horsepower of a 6year old at the moment). There is still a little room for the Lion to be 'waiting to see which side one', so those of us who wanted the same thing as me in terms of 'shades of grey' may still have their hopes fulfilled. As Magos pointed out, his ambition was not necessarily a direct corrolation with that of the Emporer - in fact he does not mention the Emporer specifically in that rather shocking final chapter. Instead, he has an interest in the success of the Imperium and the futherment of mankind - language suspiciously similar to that used by Horus in his justification for turning against the Emporer.

Thinking that Horus has played his cards early and is going to be defeated at Istvaan, he is acting within his own interests to support the Emporer, and as he mentions in turn be named as the new Warmaster marking his own ambition. However, how might that decision change once he has discovered that fully 7 legions be declared traitor, 3 loyalist legions to be shattered at Istvaan, the Ultramarines to be crippled and many of the other legions be stranded throughtout the galaxy. Would the Lion relish the prospect of a lone legion fighting against a united Imperium, especially as he is not intrinsically opposed to the powers of the warp as his confiscation of the chaos tomes of the Knights of Lupus shows?

Knowing what we do know now about the Lion from this book, to his character it might make very real sense to him to find out which way events would fall.

Just a few thoughts :)