Would officers of other legions wear any kind of winged icons on their chest plates?
I know the emperor's children wore the aqilla exculsively till after the hersey broke out but I'm more wondering like a winged fist on a IF's chest plate or a winged Ultra symbol on a Ultramarine and so on....

Would a Marine operating in a Fell Blade wear Legion Colors or techmarine colors? or a mix of the two before the hersey?

While building a Pre Hersey force would the armour make up consisiting of mostly mark 5 with a couple mark 6 mixed in with the officers and special characters wearing mark 2 thur 4. fit the proper time theme?

thanks for any answers on this as I hope to make my force look fluff fitting as possible.

1) Many members of the Space Marine Legions had winged crests on their chest plates. The reason the Emperors Children are special is because they were allowed to wear the Imperial Eagle on their chests (the symbol of the Emperor). However, you see many Blood angels and Dark Angels with wings around their legion symbols. After all, a legion with the name "angels" is likely to have wings somewhere on the armor, right?

As for Imperial Fists, I've never seen any of them with a winged crest in the pre-heresy, but that is also in line with the fact that there's so little artwork and models of them from the period. However, I can guess that they'd have the winged skulls here and there. The winged upside-down omega symbol is a great idea, and a good example of the Legion symbol being used with wings. Not exactly the Imperial Eagle, so perfectly fine.

2) I'm sure it would depend. Any pictures I've seen of tanks from the Pre-Heresy age have troopers in normal legion colors. Red-colored Techmarines are a Post-Heresy thing I think, as Techmarines from the age are also in normal legion colors.

3) Mk 6 is a little too new for a Pre-Heresy force, but it would be fine if your legion was just re-supplied by Mars and it was on the eve of the Heresy, when the Mk6 mark of armor was developed. For instance, the IF and IH legions would have ready access to this armor (the IF were fitted with the new armor suits when the loyalist Mechanicum escaped from Mars) and the IH have good relations and lots of trade with Mars, so they would also be outfitted with the newest armor. Any armor suit, Mk1(though Mk1 is pushing it as it is outdated)-Mk5 would be seen on any marine of any legion during the Pre-heresy Great Crusade.

1) Yes, individuals could wear the Imperial Eagle, but only Heroes of the Legion, no one else.
I'm pretty sure that IFs, or UMs, or whatever might have had those. It's up to you if you want to include those in your army or not.

2) Legion Colors, because the codex specified that the Chapter Techmarines and Masters of the Forge wear red armor.

3) Yes that sounds fine. :) If you read Battle For the Abyss, one of the characters has a suit of mk. 6 Corvus armor. That is about the Word Bearers, btw.

1. Officers can certainly wear winged icons on their chestplates (Garro of the Death Guard is one example). There are even examples in Collected Visions of entire squads with winged icons, for example Ultramarine Vetarans. However, the most common winged armour (Mk VII Armour, also known as 'Eagle Armour') was not developed until the very end of the Heresy. Seeing as one of the things that makes an army most distinctively 'pre-heresy' is the lack of winged chest plates, I'd avoid it on all but a few high rank models. Plus bear in mind that prior to Mk VII, the only non-custom armour that could actually be practically decorated by a winged icon would have been Mk III. Mk II was segmented, and Mk IV, Mk V and Mk VI had extensive cabling across the front.

2. I'd go with Legion colours. Although there are some examples of 'Codex' colours for the armour of specialists (apothecaries, chaplains, etc) in the artwork, most Legions seem to have used their standard colours.

3. Most common armours should really be Mk II (the most common armour during the Great Crusade) and Mk IV (which was being supplied in significant numbers to the Legions as the Great Crusade drew to a close as the 'next generation' of armour). Mk III was common on assault troops but had to many shortcomings for wider use. Mk V was only rapidly introduced as a stopgap either as the heresy broke out or just before. I'd also probably avoid Mk VI if you are going for a pre-heresy force. Although there are examples in later novels of suits in use, this seems to be pretty much as the heresy is breaking out. If you are setting your force before Horus fell to Chaos, you should probably avoid them. If after, you could probably include a few.

So - troopers should mostly wear Mk 2-4, with a few Mk V thrown in. Officers probably the only ones to wear Mk 6 if you are going to include it. Bear in mind you can get away with a fair amount of variation with Mk II and Mk III - these two suits were based on the same design and would be pretty old by this point - Legion artificiers would have been incorporating their own improvements, adding extra protection, sharing parts between the two designs and so on for years. Mk IV would be pretty much standard - it was a far newer design and was not compatible with the older parts. Mk V, like the old suits, would have significant variation - the whole point was it could be freely mixed with older parts. Mk VI, as the newest, would be pretty much 'out of the box'.

you may get away with a few MK VI's if you convert them to working prototypes. i'd recommend using lots of rivets and exposed power cables.

i've thought about trying a few of these on some of DG champions .

As everyone has pointed out already, the Corvus suits which were referred to later as "MK6" were just being made available at the time of Istvaan, and so only the legions closest to Mars and Terra from that time onwards would have had them.

If you're thinking in terms of modelling and collecting, there are many members on here who will trade you MK6 helmets and studded pads for other PH marks...

thanks for the answers. I was thinking of modeling just before or at the time Horus fell to chaos. I have ordered several set of mark V armor to play with so I think it'll be the most heavily used. with some luck I'll have more on my ideas up soon.

A.) The Emperors Children were the only Legion allowed to wear the Imperial Aquila prominently on their power armour as a whole.
Individuals earned the right to wear eagles and Aquilas, such as Nathaniel Garro.

Other winged icons were allowed otherwise the Blood Angels and Dark Angels wouldn't be allowed to wear theirs.

B.) Astartes don't appear to begin wearing Martian Red until after the Heresy, so during the Great Crusade even Techmarines wore Legion colours.

C.) Technically the only Marks of power armour available were 1 to 4. Though arguments can be made for certain parts of armour being around, that would later be considered part of the designs of Marks 5 & 6.

As for the armours used in Battle For The Abyss, Ben counter got it wrong! The Word Bearers couldn't have Mark 6 armour as Mechanicum has the STC Wafer for it being delivered after their ship was launched.
It's something the Proof-Readers missed.
Mark 5 was put into production after the outbreak of the Heresy, and Mark 6 production began sometime between the war for Mars and just before the Seige Of Terra.

Read the Formative Armour article for a better timeline.

Unfortunately, Gagoc, GW and BL (and even Dan Abnett!) have stipulated that the novels re-write the canon. Where differences appear, the novels are now considered fact and everything else is ret-conned.

Whether mistakes were made or not, the novels now trump the old material.

Which would then mean only MK4 is available during the siege with the exceptions of any protypes(6 & 7) being tested
At the end of Mechanicum when the IF come to grab all the armor and ammo they could.....
Old fluff states that this shipment was MK6 with Mk7 prototypes.
Mecanicum stated the landed was full of unpainted suits of MK4 that were silver and looked like knights of old.


So only Mk4 until after the siege at this point


Shroud, the time time you talk to one of the heads of Heresy
ask does if novels are the number one source,does that mean later published Heresy books are the most correct)
(Case in point Legion takes place two years before the Heresy but they talk about AL having the newer Baleen snout helm,
Mechanicum which was the next book to be published says only MK4 at the seige
which one of them are correct)

Yes, Shroud, that I know.
But what happens when the novels contradict each other?

That's what I was trying to highlight, the fact that Battle For The Abyss has Word Bearers equipped with armour that the Mechanicum can't make until they receive the STC Wafer, which is not only later in the Timeline but in a later book!


BigWill; Where'd you get that old piece of information on the armour marks that were taken.
The only old pieces of fluff I know of covering this incident are Formative Armour and the Spartan Land Raider articles, and neither supports your information.

As for the Baleen-snout helmet, this sounds like the Corvus helm (standard on Mk6 armour) which according to Formative Armour was developed as part of the Mk4 design project.
That has not as yet been rewritten by the novels.

@Gagog I got my info right from the Formative Armor for the MK7 entry

During what would become the final battle of Mars, the Imperium realised the planet would eventually fall and so set about duplicating and transferring the munitions and weapon production lines to Terra.
The armour development teams were transferred wholesale, to continue the ongoing development program, and incorporate their latest work into a new armour type.
As Horus’ forces finally overcame the defenders of Mars, new Mk VII suits began to reach the Space Marines on Terra and the Moon. The Mk VII represents the fulfilment of the new design program which was really only half complete in the Mk VI. In fact, so effective is the Mk VI, that both types continued in service thereafter, so that many Legions and Chapters chose to continue with the Mk VI rather than adopt the Mk VII.

Now Mechanicum might not of been the final battle,but I think It that first paragraph is talking about Sigismunds part in the Mars battle

Determining the timeline of armour introduction certainly can be a bit of a nightmare, what with inconsistancies, ret-cons, and other GW failures to properly nail down the background.

For Mk I to IV, I think things are much as they always have been:

Mk I was used for the conquest of earth, largely replaced thereafter.

Mk II was introduced following the conquest/alliance with Mars, and was used extensively throughout the Great Crusade.

Mk III was developed during the Great Crusade, and tended to be used for assault/close support squads. Also it appears some legions with a siege/close fighting focus used it extensively, perhaps more than Mk II.

Mk IV was begginning to be introduced as the Great Crusade drew to a close, just prior to Horus being appointed Warmaster. However, due to the fact the Legions were spread all around the galaxy at this point, and many Legion's conservatism holding on to their old suits, many Legions still had very limited numbers before the Heresy broke out.

This all fits with both old and new backgroiund, with no glaring contradictions. So, so far, so good.

Mk V is slightly more problematical. My interpretation would be that it only started being introduced once Horus revealed his treachery. The Kaban Project certainly suggests that the Mechanicum are concentrating production on Mk IV immediately prior to this period, for example, and makes no mention of the armour's shortcomings that became revealed later. Collected Visions mentions a new armour being available to the attacking Loyalists just prior to Istvaan, and this seems to me likely to have been Mk V given the timescale.

Mk VII seems to be easy enough. According to old background, it was only fully developed once the Mechanicum armour development teams (those that remained loyal at least) have been transferred to Terra. Thus it was available for Loyalists during the Siege, but no-one else until later. This doesn't appear to have been contradicted by any new background so far, so still seems valid.

Mk VI is by far the most difficult to nail down. Old background had it developed after the Heresy broke out fully (i.e. post-Istvaan), Legion mentions a 'baleen snout' helmet being used by the Alpha Legion several years before this point (although this could refer to either Mk VI or Mk IV), Battle for the Abyss mentions marines equipped with Mk VI pre-Istvaan, and apparently Mechanicum says that the STC for the armour was not recieved until after this point. Perhaps the easiest way to reconcile all this is to assume Legion is referring to Mk IV rather than Mk VI, assume that Battle for the Abyss is a mistake, and date the introduction of Mk VI as following the delivery of the STC mentioned in Mechanicum. This doesn't necessarily have to contradict the 'rescue' of large numbers of Mk IV by the Imperial Fists in Mechanicum - if Mk VI had only recently been developed, it makes sense that the vast majority of the complete suits would have been the Mk IV which had been in production for much longer... there could still have been significant numbers of Mk VI in the shipment, and the armour teams transferred to Terra would have continued production of the armour, at least until they developed Mk VII. So, this would mean Mk VI was developed at some point just before the fall of Mars, and would become available both to the Traitors (who took control of much of the armour production workshops) and the Loyalists at this point.

Don't forget, the books are not chronologically sequential - Mechanicum does not NECESSARILY take place after Battle for the Abyss... there is little evidence to place it specifically, and IIRC the battles for Calth were quite far into the Heresy?

Now, IIRC the MK4 was the first suit to use the "Corvus" armour characteristics, and MK6 was supposed to be a revision, intended to be MK5... but the Heresy required faster action, and new R&D was put on hold while a stop-gap model was released to fill the needs of the war. Hence the similarities between MK4 and 6, but not 5.

It could be assumed that early suits (i.e. ahead of schedule) would have been prototypes before the full scale production of MK6 was realised, and before MK5 was put out as a replacement.

Weren't there already Mk5 armours being worn by the World Eaters IN Battle for the Abyss?

We can assume that Mechanicum and BftA take place at around the same time as during Mechanicum, it mentions Kelbor Hal's seeing off of the Abyss...

Also, the battle of Calth being late in the heresy would make no sense. The whole idea was to prevent the Ultramarines from being able to act on the Heresy so would (presumably) have to take place as soon as possible. (This is assuming you would count the start of the Heresy from the time Terra becomes aware of the situation and starts acting accordingly...)

I believe Mechanicum actually mentions the dispatch of the 'Furious Abyss' to the Word Bearers near the beginning of the novel, and the battle for Calth was actually pretty early on, around the same time/shortly after Istvaan V. As far as I can make out, Mechanicum starts slightly before the events of Battle for the Abyss, and finishes some time after (Mars certainly fell some time after the Word Bearers launched their full attack on Calth).

The old background stated that Mk IV was supposed to be the final version of marine armour. As the Heresy broke out, and the problems maintaining Mk IV began to become apparent, development of the Mk V and VI was started at the same time - the Mk V was rushed into production 'almost overnight' as a stop-gap measure using older parts, and the Mk VI took longer to develop (and was an 'entirely new' suit rather than a development of Mk IV) as it was intended as a long-term replacement.

Warp transit times do not equate to real-world time. It's possible that Kelbor Hal saw off the Furious Abyss, then the entire events of Mechanicum unfolded and were resolved... and THEN the ship reached its destination many months later. :D

Clutching at straws? Me? :lol:

Dammit Shroud it is hard enough without introducing Warp Science :P

BTW I believe Red nailed it.

All except for the 'Baleen snout helmet'.
In the old fluff the Corvus helm was actually the last Mk IV helmet to be developed and became the standard Mk VI helmet due to its design and popularity.

The Baleen-snout helmet does sound a whole lot like the Corvus helmet and would explain why the Alpha Legion has it before the Heresy.


Anyway, taking into account Warp Physics still does not explain why the Word Bearers crewing the Furious Abyss had Mk VI armour when they boarded it, which was before it had even been designed! <_<

I am sure the confusion over the "baleen snout helmet' has cropped up before, and I think its the word 'baleen' itself that causes the problem.
Whilst a Baleen whale's mouth may bear a passing resemblence to the Mk VI Corvus helm, the word 'baleen' refers to the grill-like rows the whales use to feed.


They best resemble the grill of a Mk V helm, as seen on the cover of Legion, depicting an Alpha Legionnaire, from where the description is drawn IIRC, and I think it is to this Mark of Armour the writer is referring.

Where all this fits into to the timescale I'll let others rack their brains over!
I bet the poor writer never thought a simple phrase would cause such a furore!

Well, not exactly - unless you have an alternative source! The old Armour background stated both that work on the Mk VI did not start until after the Mk IV had been abandoned ('at the same time as production of Mark 4 armour ceased, work began on a long term development program to replace the Mark 4 with a more durable type') and that 'the helmet is an improved version of the Mark 4 rather than a new type'. I've not come across anything that suggests actual 'beekee' style helms were developed as part of the Mk IV, merely that the design developed from the earlier Mk IV helms, much as the Mk IV had been inspired by the sloping sides of the Mk III ('the sloping plates of this helmet [i.e. the Mk III] were intended to deflect shot to the left and right, and was to inspire the Mark 4 and 6 helmet designs.')

All quotes are from the old Space Marine Armour article.

But it doesn't say when this improvement of the Mark 4 helmet occurred. And since it's not a new type of helmet it probably wasn't developed for the MK VI armour.

That and the fact that Mk VI armour is a mixture of new and old technology, I always took it that the Corvus Helm, which by-the-way is the only helm named in that way, was a further development of the Mk IV helm that occurred after the full Mk IV armour was put into production.

This leaves a window of time from just after the Legions started being rearmed with Maximus armour through to the development of Mk VI during which the Corvus Helm was developed.
It also means that the art portraying Astartes wearing Corvus helmets before the outbreak of the Heresy are less likely to be sidelined for discrepancies.

In other words, it's one of those excerpts open to enough interpretation that it's a grey area, and can be taken either way.
That's why you can get away with Corvus Helms on Pre-Heresy marines.

Yeah I think we've had this discussion some time ago, and the general consensus was that 'baleen' applied to the grill rather than the conical snout - the dictionary says 'baleen' is the fringed plate used to take fish from the water, so we have to assume this is what the comment refers to.

The fact that Cestus is wearing a 'corvus' helm in Battle for the Abyss showed that at least some marines must have had mk6 as the heresy was coming into effect, and I think also the fact that GW has tried to retcon so much of the RT era stuff as being pre-heresy supports its use also.

What was this thread about in the first place again? :D

i was trying to keep my new Imperial fists force to be more pre hersey then post hersey for a interesting modeling challenge.

Hi all

together with Maximus Suit (Mk IV) I have chosen Corvus Amour (Mk VI) as the main type for my Heresy times Night Lords. I am portraying them already after corruption has set in, i.e. as CMS. I think this is plausible even despite the fact that Night Lords shirked the siege of the Sol-System, where the new armour (including Mk VII) has been amassed and distributed to the legions.

A related question: When relative to the Heresy was the modern type terminator armour introduced?

Serge

There is some artwork of IF Termies wearing the more modern suits at the Siege of Terra... although that could be yet another "error".

...so perhaps also in the wake of the Mk VII re-fit?

Presumably the newer terminator shoulder plates were well distributed by the time of the heresy, since the chaos pads are the newer style, and not the pre-heresy ones.

Just to chip in on the power armour timeline debate, I think the Mk4 must have been widespread by the end of the great crusade, with prototypes of the Mk6 available to some legions (the cover of Fulgrim has a corvus helmed EC on Istvaan V, although whether the cover art is canon is up for debate!). When the heresy broke out the Mk5 was introduced as an easier replacement for the Mk4 (I've modelled my Mk5 suits looking similar to the Mk4 in terms of helmets and backpacks, but with larger less-refined cables) as the Mk6 wasn't fully available yet. As marines fought marines for the first time the attrition rate on armour must have increased considerably, hence the need for the stand-in Mk5.

As the heresy continued the Mk6 went into increased production, so was available in large numbers by the siege.

Since the traitors now use a lot of Mk7 suits then presumably it was also in development towards the end of the heresy, and was then made widely available after the siege. As the loyalists hunted the traitors the Mk7 presumably replaced a lot of the older suits on both sides (and the traitors would still have forgeworlds producing armour for them for some time).

The newer style Termie armour is far more geared towards 360-degrees of defence, at the expense of some mobility... the "Cataphractii" style before that was much better at protecting the arms from the front and back, but lousy at attacks from the sides...!

I think this explains why we see more close-assault weaponry on Terminators in the PH period - greater mobility on the arms and shoulders.

Shroud; your description of the Cataphractii suit reminds me of the idea behind the Mk 3.
That it was originally designed to be used in narrow corridors and tunnels.

If you're right, this would seem to be a link in the design ethos of both suits, which would explain the Cataphractii's mk3-style helmet, and may mean that the Cataphractii Terminator suit is another development from the Inner Galactic Wars of the Great Crusade.

Damn! Those Squats had no chance!