hey there people, I noticed when I looked in collected visions there are some chapters that are supposibly lost :huh: , does anyone know what they look like? or know of any fluf which may say who they were?

any help would be apreciated ;)

No one knows as they've never been shown. Type 'lost legions' into search to find some creative discussions though.

I will do man, but currently that really helps me, as I am wanting to do my own chapter set around the heresy era and it makes it easier to get away with things ;)

Well mate, to be honest you're opening a particularly large can of worms here! :)

I remember a discussion on B&C about it that had something like 600 posts and lasted several years. Every now and again GW slip a bit more (like the extract in the lightning tower audio book) and that reignites the discussion once more.

One of the more common consensus's is this:
Originally, there was a lot of information which was referenced directly from the Roman legions. A habit during the Roman empire was to expunge records of legions which had been destroyed - the Roman Empire was by definition infallible, and so there could be no knowledge of her armies being defeated. I believe this is why the number 13 is unlucky for instance, because this was the number of one of those legions. I honestly don't believe there was any more thought than this put into it when Priestly et al wrote the first legions list.

However, now that the Heresy has come under the microscope of many background writers, rather than just being a footnote in the background section of the rulebook, theres every chance that some more effort will be made in that direction. We already heard Dorn in the Lightning Tower lamenting the 'failure' of the Primarchs of those legions when stood next to their statues on Terra (covered in black cloth). So, we know the Primarchs existed and were found. Its also extremely unlikely that they fought against the Emporer (witness the horror of marine fighting marine in Horus Rising - this action is simply unthinkable to them, which would not be the case if they had been called upon to kill their brothers previously).

So, might they have been wiped out? Considering this is something which very nearly happened to the Emporer's Children, I would say this is a very strong possibility. Remember that the Legions (or perhaps regiments would be a better term) were much, much smaller at the beginning of the Crusade. Its easy to imagine them stumbling into an offshoot of humanity opposed to the Emporer, with some form of hyper-advanced technology. Perhaps they ran into a giant orc empire, or were cut down by the Eldar for inexplicable reasons of their own? There are many, many possibilities for what could be responsible!

Some of the theories which you can remove from the equation are
1) An invisible Primarch - this was stated in the Rogue Trader rulebook as an ability of the Primarchs along with flight, but this was before the ideas were really expanded upon (Marines were not even genetically enhanced at that time)
2) Rubineck - I think there were some old WDs which listed the Valedictors lead by Rubineck fighting during the Horus Heresy. It was since retconned though, although many people seem to ignore this entirely and assume that Rubineck is the 'invisible Primarch'. Presumably that would at least explain why they went missing :P
Theres basically one guy on B&C who seems to have a chip on his shoulder about this one, and continues to post the same thing ("PROVE IT") about the Valedictors being a founding legion, despite being told exactly what issue of WD says otherwise. Got to love some of the characters you get on the internet! :)
3) Alpharius/Omegon is one of the extra Primarchs - This actually means there were 21 Primarchs. The Emporer created 20 fertilized 'super eggs' (or whatever they actually were!) and the zygote split to produce twins.
4) Rainbow Warriors - not even going to humour that one, but its frightening how many people actually believe they were a founding legion. Remember, the concept of not only Legions but also marines in Rogue Trader was far, far removed from what they are today.

Check out this thread if you want a mega drawn out thread that goes round in circles continuously :) From B&C

I think I got through three pages of that thread when I originally found it, then gave up...

Crimson Fists are one of the 'forgotten' 20, suffering from the long-suffering retconitus :P

lol, arnt crimson fists a impirial fist successor chapter :D

and pacific, thanks, I can understand why people would think rainbow warriors are a first founding as they are one of the older chapters if memory serves me correct ;)

I will be carful to avoid those worms of the cans ;) just all I thought was how cool would it be to try and come up with a plausable chapter who could be one of the forgotten legions, let alone the challenge of coming up with correct fluff and belivable fluff which ties in with the timeline :)
plus, all those extra modling restrictions have been removed, making my job just a lil bit easier, appart from the fact I have to come up with an entire new colour shceme and theme :rolleyes:

I have to admit a well thought out, perfectly integrated fluff for the missing Legion's 2 and 11 would be interesting. I've toyed with the idea, But I don't know enough of the back story for the lose tid bits. To make it as plausible as possible.

I know legion of the damned are supposed to be the Flame Falcons which were from the cursed founding. But their sudden arrival and exit reminds me something akin to the webway.

Captain Garro of the Death Guard helped form the Inquisition. And I assume the Surviving Loyalist traitors gene seeds were intermixed somehow to create the Grey Knights. and maybe the first Death Watch Unit, which later inspired the integrated teams from different chapters which would go back with a more open mind, maybe.

I have seen a thread here that mentions the name "Warp Runners" which is someone's personal creation. I do like the idea with a Legion going into the webway under the orders of the Big E with 31M tech, maybe with something advanced whom maybe are patching up the webway. And popping up in the direst need of the Imperium just to stay in shape.. That and Deamon, Eldar and Dark Eldar fighters

As for the other they had to have gone rouge but not chaos maybe

So Maybe we could set up a permanent thread where as a community we come up the fluff, colour schemes and style. It would be handy for people who just like collecting such as myself. And also a unified theme for some of the gamers? Plus I'd like to spend some time and make a nice Little Codex for them :P

So would this be allowed Mods?

I am sure there is no problem with creating a thread detailing ideas for one or both of the Lost Legions. :) The one thing I'd say is to make sure that the first post is clear that this is fan-fluff, not official, to avoid confusion for people seeking (the very small amount of) official info on them.

Anything relating to the two lost legions/Primarchs needs to be annotated with explicit references to the canon, or be basically considered open-season for people to rip apart.

Since the beginning of last week I've been exchanging emails with Graham McNeill about this... but as to what was said, "I can't say." :P

The only way you can currently find out who the XIth Primarch *might* have been is to come to the Gedren Prime event in October...! ;)

Gah! You big tease, Shroud. :lol:

Ahhh thelost primarchs... For some reason I like to think they are still around... Especially after the little tidbit Dorn dropped in Mechanicum. Hes contemplating the 13 legions at his disposal with Malcador when he musses "If only there were 15 (or something like that)" which getsMalcador annoyed and tells Dorn to not even consider it as they are lost to them. This seems to imply that the two legions were still around but something is stopping them from getting involved with the crusade.

;)

Well, the Lightning Tower is kind of like an episode of Lost, it drip feeds a tiny bit of information about the lost legions while not really saying anything we didn't know already:

So, we know that:
- The Primarchs of these legions had at least been found (discounting 1 popular theory)
- It happened some time before the outbreak of the heresy, from the tense used I'm guessing some time before the end of TGC but after Dorn had been discovered? Certainly it is implied that Dorn knew them.

It also insinuates that they either turned against their brothers/father in some way, or were proved somehow flawed perhaps...?

Ahem.

I personaly subscribe to the thought that they were flawed in a non chaotic way. My only thoughts are either one primarch was a xenos sympathiser of some sort... Possibly raised by them? Orks would no doubt find a primarch to be a leader of sorts since hes big and hurty. Eldar would no doubt have a field day with a primarch if they could mold him into anything they wanted. THe Emperor found out about them and thier flaws and still made use of them in some way. EIther sending them off somewhere or purging them entirely (less likely if Dorn contemplated asking for thier aid).

Another theory I liked was the one brought up in a fanfic. THe two lost primarchs and thier legions were blanks. Untollerable by the others they were abbandoned or something like that.

I don't think they turned traitor
- the start of Horus Rising, the marines are all joking about Horus killing the 'Emporer'. The thought of one marine fighting another is simply unthinkable, I don't think they would have this attitude if any of the legions had been used to put down another previously.
- In FoTE, when Garro kills another marine for the first time. Theres an extract focusing on the stark realisation of what he has just done, how shocked he is. Again, not the reaction of someone who has done it before.

I think this is partly what makes the Heresy so powerful, or rather what Horus has eventually chosen to do. Not only is it reneging on everything that has been created in the crusade, but it is pitting brother against brother for the first time. Look at books and films about civil war (Unionists/confederates, north south korea etc.) and there are few wars which are more horrific or tragic.

Also, remember that 'fully half' of the space marine legions turned against the emperor. This means that either:

Both were destroyed/expunged/disbanded before the heresy

or

Both survived up to the heresy, and one of them turned against the emperor.

I'd personally go with the first one. Also, when Horus has his vision, he places his hand over one of the 'lost' primarch's caskets and sees that it is cracked, and there is some comment made about it being a terrible waste (or something to the effect).

It's all a little mysterious, but then I like that, it would be a shame if GW let slip on either of them IMHO.

Do not discount revolt just because the Marines cannot fathom killing another Battle Brother.

It may be a very well kept secret only konw to Big E and some of his sons.
Probally Dorn,and Horus since it seemed he was closest to these two sons.
And Magnus too because you really cannot keep secrets from a witch.

And I am liking the idea of an Ork raised Primarch
WarBoss Mar-Ine
It would be funny if that who was running Ullanor

My my, I have sparked off quite a discussion :D
Im still doing research, but appart from the fact we know better, I found an interesting agument going on about how the legion of the damed could have been one of the lost legions, I liked the idea, but the guy was getting completely shot down About the idea :)

Haha yeah. Before you know it, this thread will be 8 pages long, and there will be dire threats of the return of invisible primarch rubineck ^_^


The Legion of the Damned were a chapter known as the Firehawks - the entire chapter made a warp jump and then never appeared at their destination, and the general supposition is that those marines who fight in armour adorned with bones and flames are those very same ones..

Big Will, who could have beaten a traitor legion other than another traitor legion? I'm sure the Luna Wolves, who we are lead to believe took on a large chunk of the work at least during the early days of the GC, would have known of a fellow legion turning traitor and having to be put down or exiled..

@ Pacific - its more than general supposition, it has actually been explicitly stated in older background that the Legion of the Damned are the Fire Hawks. So as you say, they can be discounted.

As for them fighting another Legion, as you say, it seems particulartly unlikely, particularly given Dorn mentions in The Lightning Tower that their 'tragedies' were 'separate' - i.e. they clearly didn't fight each other.

Anyhow, just for reference - here is the most in depth Lost Legions discussion we've had on the forum, and this thread deals with the theory that the Blood Ravens are one of the missing Legions.

In the background of the new Space Wolves Codex its says "Gradually, all twenty Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor and went on to lead their own Legion of Space Marines." Page 9

I starting to think the missing two primarch are intertwined

One was bad,One Good
One killed the other then the Emp killed the winner to keep anyone from getting ideas or they were tainted.
Hence Separate Tragedies
One was a Tragedy because they went evil
The other Tragedy because Fighting the Evil infact corrupted them causing the Emp to take matters in his own hands.

I think that in regards to the hints dropped so far.

At least one of the Missing Primarchs and their legions aren't dead more likely MIA.
As much as they are hinted at having tragic ends/reasons.
What could be more tragic than having an entire legion go MIA, with no trace etc?
Or they are on a private tasking known only to the big E.

"Flawed somehow" - someone knows something methinks.
(Looks at Shroud, expects the standard "I can't say." response.) ;)

Flawed could also explain taking an ideal to an extreme, for example a sense of Honour.

I mean most of the legions have links to certain historical races or mythology.
S. Wolves - Norse, B. Angels - Vampires, W. Scars - Monguls, Ultra's - Romans, D. Angels - Medieval Knightly orders etc.
There seems to be a rather large omission - Samurai.
Could it be that one of the legions adopted this ideal once reunited with their Primarch.
Down the track he fails at a task or is killed in battle - causing the rest of his legion to commit Sepaku (I hope I spelt that correctly) to atone for their failure. = Tragedy.


(off topic a bit) Personally I think I like Lastie's (from Warseer) version of who they are.

Hecate - Who is a Female.
I mean seriously who'd want to fight Marines with PMS?

and the other is - Carl who is a stoner and spends his time getting wasted and watching holovids. :ph43r:

I think once the Gedren event is over we might get anothet teaser, going off whats been said already ;)

One interesting thing to note, is that the 'invisible Primarch reference' made into 2nd edition Codex Imperialis book, and 2nd edition was when the fluff really got fgoing for 40k. It has since been retconned now, which is a shame as it would be great of one of the lost Primarchs had that power

Cyrox, I believe that the quote about an invisible Primarch was in the RT book, where they hadn't really been fleshed out beyond being marine commanders. I'm not 100%, but pretty sure (I might have to check though!) :)

Thats an interesting idea about the samurai primarch Yvraith! I remember there was an army some years ago in WD that had been completely converted, down to individual samurai style armour on the marines and helmets - it was mental!

Although, after reading Legion perhaps we have got some form of 'samurai-character' in the form of the Alpha Legion? I don't mean in the sense of swords and whatnot, but more the similarities to Buddhism and Confucianism which kind of provide a backdrop the Samurai, and are also reflected in some way in the utter pragmatism with which the Alpha legion conduct themselves. To think beyond their own immediate circumstances and do what is best for the harmony of the galaxy.

Although I guess the whole lack of honest and underhand dealings kind of knock the wind out of that idea :D