Hey guys!

Here what I was thinking. Some races were already here PH, some not. But for those who were there, how would you represent theire "pre-heresiness"? That's quite a big deal, especially for Eldars, who are supposed not changed since then, so how to render this? Of course you could just paint some Eldars regularly and say "They're PH", but that would be too easy for me...

So why don't we discuss that, and then do a summary of the ideas thrown in?

Here are my ideas.

-Orks: Exactly as Old Zogwort said. Less advanced weaponry, stolen equipement PH
-Eldars: Errr.... Less spectral units? (Dreadnought and guards)? other than that, I really don't see how in their look... maybe more "exodite-like" since The Fall was not so long ago for them.
-Necrons: Well, they weren't here yet, but we can suppose that few contacts would still have been made... Anyway, they would be the same.
-Taus: Well, small fishes in some ponds at this time, so... :D
-Nids: not here yet, maybe except some Stealer Cults, but I'm not even sure for that...

If I forgot someone, just tell me!

So, your ideas?

Nids, Tau and necrons are out (though they can represent Megarachnids, advanced humans and Iron Men respectively).

Orks: as stated, maybe more alien weapons?
Eldar: Only thing I can think of is to have a load of dead crusade marines lying on their bases...

Tau: The best option for them is to have them represent another xenos race, like the Laer or the Jokaero or some other race exterminated by the Imperium during the Crusade.

Eldar: Play them as a Prate fleet, like Yriel's Reavers. These were more common after the Fall (which is what marked the start of the Great Crusade). Also, Craftworlds were less established, and Aspect Warriors would have been rarer. More use of Guardians backed up by Vehicles. Probably less ghost-warriors, as they wouldn't have used it before the Fall, so the technology may still be new at the start of the Great Crusade. You could use Aspect Warrior rules (Banshees or Avengers) to represent Fleet veterans and Autarchs to represent Corsair Lords. Jetbikes would also be popular with these corsairs.

Necrons: The Crons were still largely in stasis at this point, though there were periodic raids on fringe-worlds, often worlds which would later become identified as tomb-worlds. This is why in they were known as the Necron Raiders (pre-current codex). To represent these raiding forces, stick to basic units in the Necron force. Specifically Necron Warriors, Necron Lords, Immortals, Scarab Swarms and Destroyers (important to have fast attack units for raiding..). No Monoliths. Far too heav for raiding. Tomb Spyders would be active, as they would be keeping the tombs, though they wouldn't be part of a raid. Definitely no Pariahs; they are a recent invention the the 40k time-frame, so weren't around PH.

I fully agree with that, but for Eldars at least, how do we make them look Heresy-like, appart from putting crusade marines on the bases?

Thank you for the reminder and the enlightenment.

Unsure of Eldar modeling, perhaps maybe some wild-looking psykers reeling from the birth of Slaanesh?

And as a note, Tyranids would only work for Megarachnids. Genestealers weren't discovered until, either .M36 or the begginning of .M41.

Aside from maybe inventing some older-style glyphs, I don't see that Eldar NEED to look any different. Their technology was the same, as it had been for millennia... the Aspect paths were already in place and established...

Maybe restrict it to characters/Exarchs, and try to make them look a bit more 'frontier' with wild hair and so on.

Or if you are confident with freehand painting you could paint little murals on vehicles and banners, depicting the Fall and the birth of Slaanesh.

Eldar technology peaked when humans were still cave dwellers on Terra, their society reached its height at this time and the Birth of Slaanesh didn't happen much later. It speculated that this sped up humanities evolution and allowed them to prosper (obviously not just the birth of Slaanesh but the whole expansion of Warp realms).

I'd say that the Eldar haven't changed at all in 10,000 years except for there being fewer Ghost Warriors in the 31st Millenium - so Iyanden armies'd be the only massively differing ones.

tau as the laer....hmm problem laer good in combat...lol
maybe tau as tainted imperials gifted with weapons?

:huh:

What about squats? :lol:

What about using the Guard dex with the Carapace armour, Hardened Fighters, Die-hards, Iron Discipline & Grenadiers doctrines ?

I was planning to paint my Eldar as being from Craftworld Altansar--which was sucked into the Eye within a millenium of the Fall. My Imperial stuff are my main force but I've always had a soft spot for Eldar so when I got back into the hobby and saw plastic War Walkers and Wave Serpents I had to get a few. ;-)

I'm also going to use non-standard Aspect Warrior schemes, on the basis that the Shrines may not have been so codified that early on. Actually I was going to use black, red and brass for the Aspects.

Eldar Corsairs are also a great idea; I imagine it'd be a Guardian-based list, or else having lots of 'counts as'?

The warrior paths were certainly in place by the time of the Heresy - from the descriptions in Fulgrim, I can't tell any differences.

Well, that's too bad imho, maybe we should think of some visual way of representing PH Eldars.

I mean, if not, you can simply buy some regular Eldars, paint them with a regular scheme, and then say "They're PH" whenever you play against PH armies, where's the fun? :P

Even without talking about different technologies, maybe their armours could be slightly different, kinda like different Marks. Any ideas on that?

The only way I can think to really mark them as different, model-conversion-wise would be to make a pre-Fall army. That would be radically different to the Eldar we know today, but pre-Fall is pre-Great Crusade, so no good for PH :(

I'd say just leave them the way they are... They're elves (be it in space) and are supposed to be kind of "timeless" in my opinion...

Well, "timeless" doesn't mean "dead", and imo a civilization whom art and design doesn't evolves given time (especially 10.000 years) is a dead civilization.

Of course the Eldar civilization has Fallen, but still even a martial civilization like the one they have become since then would have it's design to evolve a bit (at least to adapt itself to the newcomers for stealth purpose and so on).

But anyway as I said above, if it's just to have normal Eldars and say that they are PH, where's the fun? No great conversion, no specific visual that makes it "your" army, etc etc? :D

im waiting for hrud....that will be interesting

and i dont think eldar would have changed much at all

Damn, you're all weak! :D

I'll show you, I'll try and by some Eldars some days, and Try to make them look different, a bit more ancient! :D

(Luckily, my birthday isn't in too much time, I'll have finish my ultras and Dark Angels since then, so...Eldars!)

The Eldar ARE dying though... isn't there some fluff somewhere that says no new Eldar have been born for millennia? It's like Children of Men - "last one to die, please turn out the light"...

They won't have changed at all in human memory. Eldrad Ulthran was ALIVE at the time of the Heresy, and he's unlikely to embrace change very fast.

I think when your lifespan is measured in millennia and you can see into the future, making changes becomes rather a redundant concept. Surely the Farseers wold have simply engineered the most efficient course of action, negating the trial-and-error style evolution and advancement that humanity has to endure.

On the subject of older 'marks', how about using the older style minis?

Yes true, but I'm not talking about major changes, just few visual tricks.

I was indeed considering taking such old minis as example, but on new ones basis. like doing a Space Marine armour Mk1 with a Mk8 :D

But anyway, I said I'll show you :P

for a army list it be more aspect becuase less survillians wud be used ..
just my 2 p :)

eldar would have all the aspects wouldnt they? since the fall was waaaaaaaaaaaaayyy before the rise of The Imperium or even The Unification

This is true--though I was thinking that by going with a now-absent Craftworld (Altansar) it would help with the 'historical' feel. Non-standard paint schemes for the Aspects was another idea I'd had, on the basis that as they were (compared to the present, i.e. M41) newer additions to the Eldar lifestyle they may be a little less widespread, and more diverse in decoration than at present (as they'd have had less time to wander the Webway founding new Shrines, and Exarch suits may be on their first few wearers). So what I'm saying is that now, while Dire Avengers mostly wear blue, in the past they might not mostly have--it may have been that other colours were worn in the past, but either fell out of favour, or else the blue-clad shrines were more successful in spreading to other Craftworlds.

The issue of how to make xenos look like they come from M31 instead of M41 is a tricky one, though, as there's nothing obvious standing out in the same way as Imperial weaponry and armour. Unless someone wanted to make Ahra, the Fallen Phoenix. ;)

Dorn: I think so. I remember one old piece of Eldar lore saying that Warp Spiders were the newest (and that's why they lacked a known Phoenix Lord), but I don't remember the dates mentioned (if any) and can't find the info in any of the old lorebooks I have to hand now. So perhaps I am imagining it.

The Fall happened sometime before the Crusade began, because the birth of Slaanesh cleared the Warp of all the storms which had prevented the Emperor from beginning his conquest. As soon as the Fall happened, the Emperor began to make plans to start his Crusade a-proper.

I see no reason why it couldn't have taken up to 1000 years to actually start the Crusade, given that the fleet had to be built, and weapons and armies raised from the newly-unified peoples of Terra...

Well, I'm with Brother Tiriel on this one; using regular Eldar seems too easy and not unique enough. I actually asked a similar question on the old forums, if you guys remember. Are there any descriptions or pictures of pre-Fall Eldar? If so, some of the armour and weapons might look somwhere in between pre-Fall and "modern" Eldar. Maybe I'm just trying to find conversion opportunities where they don't exist, but making some Eldar truly seem Pre-Heresy would be a lot better than a proxied 40k army.

honestly i say screw eldar.....yes they would have full acees

someone make hrud and make rules for them or even us eldar/nuds rules for them. i know how to make the eldar part work...i will explain if anyone wants me to

Does anyone know how long it took for the the Crone Worlds to be swallowed by the Eye of Terror. Because you could do an army from the Crone Worlds. They would be very different from Craftworld forces. You could try playing with Dark Eldar weapons. They have a more archaic feel to them, and probably have a design more similar to pre-Fall Eldar weaponry.

For a visually different Craftworld army, lets see. Pre-Fall Eldar, especially nobles, lived very lavish lifestyles. So you could theme an army around a Farseer or Noble (Autarch) who is reluctant to let go of his rich lifestyle and culture. For modelling ideas, mix in lots of parts from WHFB High Elves (or other Elves too). The High Elf Archers would fit particularly well.

Dorn: I have written a full Hrud Codex :)

As for the Nids, I always pictured the Laer as Nids...at laest they're described with a sleek snake-like body, and that their warriors had claws and some chitinous armour or something, I will look it up...

Where's the link? :)

That's a good idea for the Eldar, but I'm pretty sure they were all but annihilated and sucked in by Slaneesh. The only reason the Craftworlders and Exodites survived is that they were on the furthest reaches of the galaxy... Maybe some kind of trading noble who was on a trip to purvey rare delicacies or summin...

Currently the only link I have to it is on 40konline: http://www.40konline.com/mos/index.php?opt...8848.msg1019553

It's built under 3rd Ed rules, but I plan to update it to the new format once the 5th Edition rules are out. Then I'll format it to html and make a downloadable pdf.

Iirc, the craftworlds were built mainly by those (Farseers) who saw that their civilisation was degrading, created the Eldar Path system, and left to begin this new style of life. It was supposed to ensure that they would never slip into the same mistake again. But doing this, yes, they managed to escape the bulk effect of the Fall (though Craftworld Altansar was too late, and was caught in the pull of the Eye of Terror, and eventually swallowed by it).

;) :) :) :) nice! :) :) :) ;)

but i say the "best way to represent aliens in 40k" is not to....humanity!

how do you make Hrud models?

Nice dex Arven but wouldnt using kroot rules be enough?

As for moddels I had some plands for using kroot arms and just putty, theire practicly nothing but sacks of cloth(and yes I know theire not actually cloth, I have read xenology)
But if you want to make one without any clothing, remember that they looks like teh monster from the black lagoon, with ugly snakelike apendages......

ill just use some Skaven...

also what was the race of crystalline warriors? id like to see those made

On the thought of eldar, and I hope I am not too far out of line....

For a race as old as the Eldar, 10,000 years is just a drop in the hat to them. I am not saying there are no modeling opprotunities, just that you would have to be REAL inventive and have a good idea of what you want them to look like.

As for those who wish to attempt this epic task, I bid you the best of luck and definitely post pics and ideas!

Maybe something along the lines of the rangers might be good for PH Eldar?

I'd personally love to make a Laer army.

Mmmm Laer, snake beasties.
And remember that the hrud aint no rats, more reptilian as far as I reckon.

The Ophidian from Rackham would be good for Laer, once you 40K them up a bit.

There is a picture I saw once of something that looked like a lizardman with what appeared t be a flmaer...hrud?

it could be, or something called the Loaxtl (sp)

Its ment to be a Slann, a servent of the old ones, and I think its armed with a shruken catapult.