Yes I do know there is another thread on this question, but this has come up before and my rather extensive answer could overwhelm that thread. That and I'll probably have to break it up into a number of posts just to make it easier to read.

This work also has some information on Chaplains, especially the Chaplain Edict.

==========

There have been quite a few questions about Librarians during the Great Crusade.
Did they exist?
Weren’t they banned by the Council of Nikaea?
What relation did they have to Sorcery?

There are three main sources of information on this particular part of the Librarian background. They are the Index Astartes articles, the Horus Heresy CCG and related art books, and of course there the Horus Heresy novels. Of these the IA articles take the position of only Sorcery being, whilst the CCG takes the position of all Psykers being banned. As for the novels, even by Fulgrim their position is as yet unclear.

Index Astartes
One of the first things that should be taken into account is that most background (fluff) on the Horus Heresy, and the times before that, would have been written from the perspective of the 41st Millennium. This includes the Index Astartes articles, the Horus Heresy CCG & art books, and most of the works from Black Library.

Even GW has supported this as shown by these extracts:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
White Dwarf #268, April 2002. Index Astartes 'Sons Of Horus' article.

Origins
The early history of the First Founding Space Marine Legions is largely lost to the relentless march of time. Accounts and details of those Legions that rebelled (and especially of the Arch-Traitor Horus himself) were further expunged from Imperial records after the Horus Heresy, to deny any knowledge of those events from the minds of Imperial citizens. Indeed, only a select handful of powerful individuals know any of the truth and it is likely that none know it all. Such information that does exist is sketchy and anecdotal, and lies in ancient heretical tomes closely guarded by certain Inquisitors or handed down within secret orders of the original Legions that remained loyal.
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Black Templars Codex, 2005. Page 4.

The Great Betrayal
Much of the truth of these times has been lost, obscured by the mists of time or embellished to the point where giants bestrode worlds with thunderous steps and the planets themselves cracked and split at their tread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These excerpts describe how most of the known background on the Great Crusade and the Heresy should be taken.
It should be treated as if it has been written by scholars in M41 who have very little firm knowledge on what happened 10,000 years ago, and have filled the gaps with supposition, myths and legends. This body includes the Index Astartes and the Horus Heresy art books.
The only works that are supposed to closely reflect what happened during the heresy are the Horus Heresy novels, as they are written from the points of view of those who were there, though this does not preclude them from inaccuracies as not everyone is privy to the full workings of any operation, and some report rumour as fact.

To put it simply, most of the stuff that doesn't go into great detail can be taken with a pinch of salt. For info from the Horus Heresy novels the pinch is smaller than for the rest.

The exceptions are the Horus Heresy novels, which are meant to be written from the perspective of someone who was there at the time.

Index Astartes: Masters of Forbidden Knowledge, the Thousand Sons Space Marine Legion

The main evidence for Sorcery, and not Psykers, being banned at Nikaea can be found in the Index Astartes article on the Thousand Sons, originally published in White Dwarf #267, March 2002.

Quote (from pages 25, 26 & 27):

The discovery of their lost master could not have come sooner for the Thousand Sons. Formed from Magnus’s own gene-seed, the Legion was disposed toward psychic mutancy in disproportionate numbers; a circumstance the fledgling Imperium was ill equipped to handle. Deep factionalism divided those who recognised the benefit of stable mutations such as the so-called 'Navigator Gene' of the Navis Nobilite. The Navigator Houses' 'third eye' allowed them to steer a course through the Immaterium making warp travel possible, but some perceived the increasing and seemingly random nature of human mutation as a destructive internal threat. An entire Legion of potential mutants was seen as a dangerous development. The fifteenth Legion had suffered terribly from spontaneous, uncontrolled manifestation of psychics amongst their ranks, and those who survived to receive training became amongst the most powerful librarians of the epoch. Many more did not. Moreover, the increasingly vocal anti-mutant 'witch hunting' crusades within the Imperium had seized upon the out-of-control Legion as evidence of the danger of psychic mutation. Cries that demanded purging the Imperium of psykers completely were not uncommon, and those directed at the remote superhuman Space Marines of the Thousand Sons were among the most strident. Magnus came just in time to save the Legion from the threat of destruction. Relocating its entire depleted strength to Prospero, Magnus turned the might of his intellect to their instruction in the ways of the psyker.

There are scholars, especially amongst the Librarians of certain Space Marine Chapters, who suggest it was during this time that another threshold was crossed. They believe that the crisis of controlling an entire Legion’s destructive psychic mutancy caused Magnus to seek shortcuts, or explore more perilous paths. There are others, including prominent members of the Inquisition, who suggest no such ‘threshold’ ever existed; that the original commune of psychic adepts were already students of darker arts before Magnus came amongst them. Thus his initiation into similar rites was inevitable. Still others postulate it was the magnitude of the Primarch’s own insatiable hunger for knowledge that made what followed inevitable. When it happened will never be known, but at some point, Magnus the Red and his Thousand Sons Legion pursued knowledge beyond scholarship and psychic discipline, and began to practice sorcery.

The difference was not universally noticed at first. Magnus joined the Great Crusade with vigour. He led the Thousand Sons alongside the Emperor, the other rediscovered Primarchs with their Legions and all the fighting forces of Man. They fought in a grand campaign radiating out from Terra, liberating colonies long isolated and claiming new worlds for the glory of the Emperor. That the Thousand Sons accomplished their victories through guile and deception as often as by strength of arms did not initially draw concern. Victory was victory after all. However, the further the Emperor’s realm expanded, the more tenacious grew the opposition. Increasingly, Legions of Space Marines or regiments of Imperial Guard would make planetfall expecting to find lost colonies of men, only to discover the thralls of mysterious powers utterly inimical to them. These slave cults resisted with sorcerous powers granted them by daemonic beings from across the Warp, powers few could fail to notice were akin to those wielded by the Thousand Sons of Magnus. There were those amongst the Imperial court suspicious of the Thousand Sons methods. Paramount amongst them was Motarion, sepulchral lord of the Death Guard who knew to well from his own past that sorcerous power never came without a price. Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, for whom any battle fought through sleight of hand and clever deceit was by definition dishonourable also lent his voice to the critics of the Thousand Sons. The schism grew so great that it threatened the very foundations of the new order, and so the Emperor of Man himself decreed a council to resolve the issue for all time. The mightiest proponents of both sides convened on the planet Nikaea to debate, with the Emperor himself enthroned above the dais as arbiter, in an ancient amphitheatre that seated tens of thousands. There, beneath the glittering starlight, the witch hunters presented their case. They recited a litany of human misery inflicted upon the Emperor’s own subjects by sorcerers enslaved by Chaotic monstrosities; of mutants unable to control what they had become, and despots who turned their psychic gifts to dark and selfish purpose. To speak against these charges came Magnus himself. He climbed the dais in silence, his own visage seeming to confirm everything the witch hunters asserted. But when began to speak, it was clear none of his accusers could match the charisma or presence of a Space Marines Primarch and least of all this particular Primarch’s certainty of conviction. Magnus told the assembled throng that no knowledge was tainted itself, and no pursuit of knowledge ever wrong so long as the seeker of that truth was master of what he learned. And, Magnus decreed with finality, there were no secrets that the Thousand Sons had not mastered, no ways too labyrinthine for them to know. When he stepped from the dais, the council was divided more sharply than ever: the witch hunters had made their case collectively with great impact, but with insufficient power to blunt the persuasiveness of the Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The assemblage openly wondered if even the Emperor could decide against one of his sons.

The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais. the Emperor acknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent, for visible amongst the librarians were the chiefs of some of the greatest Legions in the Imperium. These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words. Though his identity has been lost to history, he is said to have spoken with a passion that bordered on ferocity, and offered to the assembled council a third alternative. A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.

The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. the Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. But it was not the decision favoured by Magnus. The Grimoire Hereticus records the fateful face-to-face confrontation between father and son when the Emperor himself barred Magnus’s attempt to storm from the hall in protest. He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. It is said the cyclopean Primarch’s face appeared as brittle as aged stone as he received his father’s command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. Neither Emperor nor Primarch knew that this moment would be the last time they would meet, and that events would be set in motion that would climax in treachery, bloodshed and pain.
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As can be clearly seen, this is an in-depth representation of what happened at Nikaea/
It should be pointed out that it is unknown how many Legions were represented by the Librarians at Nikaea, but it can be assumed that a good proportion were.

Next: the Horus Heresy CCG.

Horus Heresy CCG

With the information from this source a new factor must be taken into account, to what degree is this story of the Heresy authentic to Games Workshop and therefore cannon.
There are two main arguments on this: the first states that this is a GW product, even though it is produced through Sabertooth games, and therefore is wholly cannon. The other argument states that it’s authenticity is suspect, as it contradicts previous background, there are errors, mainly linked to the artwork but including incorrect factual information; and that Sabertooth games, a separate subsidiary, commissioned their own interpretation of the Horus Heresy story.

The CCG also links the Judgement of Nikaea with the Chaplain edict, and is the mian source for this.

The Horus Heresy, Vol. I-4, Collected Visions

The only evidence to clearly support the notion that Psykers were banned at Nikaea is from the Horus Heresy CCG & art books.

Volume I: Visions of War, Page 86, Council of Nikaea Collected Visions, Page 94.
The Emperor made his ruling. Beyond the exceptions of the Navigators and astropaths he was adamant that the Legions did not employ psykers. Even the hint of sorcery had become dangerous and unacceptable. He commanded that the Primarchs close their Librarius departments forthwith and ordered the that the Primarchs themselves not indulge their undoubted psychic talents. The Emperor said it was not clear if Magnus had been using sorcery but that he should immediately cease employing psychic powers.
The Council of Nikaea had been the Trial of Magnus the Red. He was accused of sorcery and of introducing sorcerous practices to the Space Marine Legions through the institution of Librarians.
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Though it does positively say that psykers were banned, the level of detail about the council is lower than Index Astartes article. It could be argued that this indicates that the art book version contains more hearsay and misinformation than the article.

Volume II: Visions of Darkness, Page 28, The Chaplain Edict Collected Visions, Page 124.
After the Council of Nikaea, the Space Marine Legion had been instructed to abolish their Librarius divisions. The Emperor decreed that henceforth no Legion was to employ psyker in battle, nor were they to continue their studies into the mysteries of psychic talents. Those Legions who had Librarians - psychically empowered Marines - were instructed to reassign them to standard fighting units and to forbid the use of their abilities.
First Lord of Terra, Malcador the Sigillite, leader of the Council of Terra, was not satisfied that all of the Legions would follow the Emperor’s edict. He knew that many of the Primarchs placed great value on their Librarians and the powers they could unleash on the battlefield. For some of the Legions, the deployment of psyker had become central to their strategies and tactics.
Whilst the Emperor worked his secret labours in the Palace Vaults, Malcador the Sigillite issued a new edict through the Council of Terra in the name of the Emperor. This was the Order of Observance, more commonly known as the Chaplain Edict, and its inspiration was the Word Bearers Legion.
The Word Bearers Primarch, Lorgar, had been raised on the cult world of Colchis. In time, Lorgar had become Its martial and spiritual leader. His first meeting with the Emperor was believed to be a fulfilment of an ancient prophecy; an event that reinforced the religious fervour of the people of Colchis, and Lorgar himself. On becoming Primarch, Lorgar had introduced officer-clerics to his Legion. These warrior-priests were named chaplains, and their role was to minister to the needs of the Space Marines and ensure that their faith in the Emperor was strong.
Inspired by this, Malcador ordered the other Space Marine Primarchs to appoint chaplains who would ensure the spiritual wellbeing of their Legion, and enforce the psyker ban. These officers were to be picked from those Space Marines who were steadfast in their duties, and who had demonstrated the strongest loyalty to their Primarch and so to the Emperor.
Most of the Primarchs loyally followed the edict and began to appoint officers to the rank and duties of chaplain. Some did not. Lorgar of the Word Bearers was quietly amused by the irony of the new edict - his Legion had already secretly fallen to Chaos.
Given the vagaries of communication across the vastness of the Galaxy, it would not have seemed unusual or suspicious to Malcador that not all of the Primarchs had voiced their consent to the edict immediately. It was also certain that some of the Primarchs behaved duplicitously, and while they assured him they were doing as the Emperor had ordered, they were not. In time, their dishonesty became clear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This piece not only reinforces the ban on psyker argument, but gives an explanation for chaplains as well.
A Chaplains duty was to see to the spiritual wellbeing of their fellow Astartes, as well as enforcing the Nikaea edicts.
It may also indicate that there were few chaplains amongst the Legions that later joined Horus.

ext: The Horus Heresy Novels.

The Horus Heresy (Novels)

The only other evidence on the judgement delivered at the Council of Nikaea can be found in the Horus Heresy novels.

False Gods, Page: 170.
Since their inception, the Thousand Sons had been viewed with suspicion for embracing powers that others were afraid of. Powers that, because they were not understood, were rejected as being somehow unclean: rejected ever since the Council of Nikaea.
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This particular quotation can be taken to support either argument. Though it may favour the Sorcery ban argument as it can be said that the Thousand Sons were known for their use of sorcery, whether actual or suspected.

False Gods, Page: 323
Horus watched as Magnus hurled bolt after bolt of lightning from his fingertips, amazed and horrified to see his brother employing such powers. Though all Legions had once had Librarius divisions that trained warriors to tap into the power of the warp, they had been disbanded after the Emperor's decree at the Council of Nikaea.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Because this quote doesn't come out and say what exactly say what was banned, this too can be used to support either argument as both psychic and sorcerous powers draw on the warp. But, unlike the previous quote, this quote lends greater support to the psyker ban argument, than the sorcery ban.

The Flight Of The Eisenstein, Page: 354
'Gifted.' Dorn made the word a growl. 'I know the kind of "gifts" that the Sisterhood come seeking. Have you brought a mind-witch aboard my fortress, Death Guard? Does this remembrancer bear the mark of the psyker?' He grimaced. 'I was there at Nikaea when the Emperor himself censured the use of these warp-spawned powers for the good of the Imperium! I will not allow such forces to run unchecked among my warriors!'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This quote seems to be neutral, especially the term ‘warp-spawned powers’, though after some careful thought it could be argued that it gives more credence to Sorcery being banned as that is the power that is truly from the warp.

Fulgrim, Page: 320
‘Firstly, I bring word of Lord Magnus of Prospero. It has come to the attention of the Emperor, beloved by all, that, contrary to the dictates of the dictates of the Council of Nikaea, Lord Magnus has continued his researches into the mysteries of the immaterium.’
Fulgrim nodded to himself as he began pacing once more and said, 'I knew he would, but the others were too blind to see it. Even with the new chaplains in place, I suspected Magnus would backslide. He does love his mysteries.'
'Quite,' agreed Braxton. 'The Sigillite has despatched the Wolves of Fenris to bring Magnus back to Terra to await the Emperor's judgement upon him.'
'Then Magnus is to be... what? Charged with a crime?' asked Fulgrim heatedly, as though his anger at the messenger would somehow change the facts.
'I do not know any more my lord,' replied Braxton, 'simply that he is to return to Terra with Leman Russ of the Space Wolves.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This does appear to be one the strongest bits of evidence supporting the ban on sorcery position.

As for Chaplains there is this :

Fulgrim, Page: 87
'Warrior's fate?' laughed Caphen, shaking his head. 'Sometimes I swear I ought to report you to Chaplain Charmosian with all your talk of fates and gods of battle.'


This all the pertinent information on the Librarians and the Judgement of Nikaea question that I know of. If you know of a pertinent piece of background, please contribute it with the source information (book, page #, etc.).
Thank you.

Although this is a well researched article, I feel that some of your conclusions are either incorrect or are leaps of faith. Below are some of my grievences.

1, The idea that the artbooks are written from the prespective of the 41 Millennium. It seems to me to be written from the perspective of an external narrative, and thus the arguments about lost source material within the background does not apply.

2, Was it really necessary to post whole swathes of source material, asides from possible breaches of IP, it's rather a lot to wade through. I do commend your thoroughness, however.

3, Where is you terminology? You seem to be all over the place in what is meant by Sorcery and what is meant by Psychic. What is the difference between the two and how do they interact?

4, Some of your conclusions as to what some of the quotes actually relate to, for example in the quote to FotE, p354 "Warp-spawned powers" actually relates to both psychics and sorcery, and considering Dorn is complaining about Psykers in the sentence before it, I would say it's prudent to say that his comment relate to Psykers.

One of the problems with posts of this sort is that it can be daunting for others to disagree with such a large and detailed posts. This stiffles the discussion and can seem authorative when it's all supposition, just like everyone elses opinion.

I'll answer points one by one.

1.> I said that the artbooks, and the other materials, are treated as though they are written in M41 because I was told GW were treating the novels as the most accurate source of background for the Heresy and Pre-Heresy era's. This person also pointed out the Sons of Horus and Black Templar IA articles as an example of why.
Another reason being the argument over the art books Canonicity. So, eventhough I'm trying to point to the novels for the answer, I thought it best to produce the evidence and leave it up to the reader to decide for themself.

2.> There are a lot of misquotes of the sources floating around, so I thought it best to include all the pertinent excerpts rather than just the ones to back one side of the argument.

3.> A Psychic is one who has mental powers such as Telepathy, Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, and so on. To me a Psyker is a Psychic who channels the energy of the warp (unconciously) to augment their psychic power.
Whilst Sorcery is when a Psychic/Psyker draws on the Powers of the Warp (ie Tzeentch), usually through the casting of spells. It is possible that a spell acts like a prayer to the powers of the Warp. Though whether magic directly augments their psychic powers is debatable.
The OED definition of a Sorcerer kinda supports this: a magician, especially one supposedly aided by evil spirits.
Is it me or do you think the guys a GW looked that up before saying that Chaos magicians were Sorcerers?

4.> Dorn actually uses the words 'censured the use of these warp-spawned powers', and that's not the full quote. The word censure is open to interpretation, as it generally means to criticise, blame or scold. It also has links with the words judgement and opinion. It could quite easily refer to the actual Judgement of Nikaea.

Like I said, I did not set out to just put one side of the argument and its supporting evidence. I only sought to provide the evidence there was with some commentaries, and try to point to the fact that the definitive answer should eventually come from the novels. At least until GW retcons it!

You'd think that wouldn't you, but in both 'The Inquisition' and the Inquisitor rpg Daemonology is classed as a Psychic Discipline, as is Theosophamy. In fact this is what 'The Inquisition' has to say on the matter.

-both quotes from p69, The Inquisition: An illustrated guide to the secretive protectors of the Imperium, 'Psychic Disciplines' Sidebar.

There are other issues with whether psykers are 'unconsciously' channeling the warp. Not only from the examples given above, but also from the fact that the new 'Dark Heresy' rpg has psykers being able to invoke more power for their psychic abilities, which suggests that the power comes from else where.

The Warhammer 40k rule book has this to say of Librarians:

-Warhammer 40k rule book, p123. My own itallics.

The quote seems to me to be adverse to an unconscious act of using the warp.

The Dark Heresy book also states that the difference between pskers and sorcerers in M41 is that Sorcerers have sold their souls to warp based entities to enhance their psychic powers. Obviously this is not only from the point of view of the 41st Millennium, but also from a book which may or may not be considered canon, but it is echoed in the 40k rule book on page 132.

The two Inquisition codices may enlighten further but I have neither to hand right now, I will be happy to share anything of interest if I find it.

So again, I say that the definition of what is Sorcery and what is Psychic will have to wait until GW gets it's finger out and provides us with a clear definition of its own.

Would you use the word 'censured' to describe something that is officially approved of? Seeing as the term in my dictionary says 'To express official disapproval' and 'To severely criticise, blame' I would have to say probably not.

I agree people misquote things all the time, a lot of this is down to misinterpretation and a mild form of cognitive dissonance that comes with having to read laboriously long posts of excerpts.

I also noted that each excerpt is commented on as to which side of which argument you believe it supports, the quote from Fulgrim, p320 has a comment of how it strongly supports the ban on Sorcery argument. When from my reading it's far too vague on the subject as a whole, yes it does support the idea that Sorcery was banned, but neither side of the argument disputes this.

A lot of problems arise because GW's definitions are vague and contradictory, and this often frustrates any kind of codified definition...And even if we are given a good clear definition it will be contradicted in the next book to come from their press.

It seems to me that you defined them pretty well in your post:

Sorcery:

Psyker:

I don't think its quite so simple as 'Sorcerers' necessarily selling their souls to warp powers, although many do. The key points, I think, are in the Thousand Sons IA, seeing as it appears to go into the difference in the most detail.

Psykers draw on the power of the warp unaided, wheras Sorcerers make 'bargins' with entities from the warp itself to boost their powers. This doesn't necessarily mean they bargin with their own soul... sacrifices, for example, could be enough to pacify the warp powers, or granting them the souls of them killed by the sorcerous powers, or even using powers in a specific way that please the Warp powers. But either way, it is a 'something for something' arrangement, and in return for getting something that pleases them, powers in the warp (be they demonic entities or Gods) add their powers to boost those of the sorcerer, or grant them additional knowledge to help them utilise their own natural powers. This second type of aid seems to be supported by this quote:

So the process may sometimes involve no actual involvement of demons/gods during the use of the power itself, merely the 'granting' of additional knowledge or mastery beforehand.

Of course, the whole process is more dangerous than merely using your own natural power unaided...

Of course, as a Thousand Sons fan, I reckon the definition is less clear cut than the Imperium would like to believe. Any use of warp power effects you somehow, whether aided by 'demonic beings' or not...

Now that the background material seems to have been covered pretty well by Gagoc, Red and Follieslabour, how about some practical considerations? i.e. what legions do we know used librarians/sorcerors during the great crusade and prior to the Horus Heresy, other than the Thousand Sons?

I specifically wanted to know about whether the World Eaters had sorceror's/librarians, but perhaps somone might know enough to make a list?

I believe the Legions still had their Librarians up untill the Heresy,where the World Eaters slaughtered all of their as an offering to Khorne when they turned.But that is old fluff,i dont know if it still counts as cannon.It makes more sense that sorcery was banned...




Cheers.

in the descent of angles,
when zahariel saves the emperor from the terrorist attack the emperor says to another librarian that he would make a good addition to the libraium due to his Terrorsight
problem solved!


actually that doesnt solve the problem it just confuses it. :blink:
:(
DP

[No need for spoiler warnings on a book which has been available for nearly 18 months - Shroud]

Nope, it doesn't confuse the issue - after all, Zahariel's encounter with the Emperor occurs early in the Great Crusade, before the Council of Nicaea met and decided on the ban on Sorcery. So several Legions had Librarian departments at this stage.

As for which Legions had Librarians, we don't know enough to make a list. We know the Thousand Sons had them, and so did the Dark Angels (ref. Descent of Angels). The quote from False Gods implies all Legions had them ("Though all Legions had once had Librarius divisions") However, thedistaste of certain Primarchs for psychic arts would suggest some Legions would not have had them (the Death Guard and the Space Wolves are likely examples). Until later novels throw light on the subject, we don't really know.

Fair point red,didnt think of that.
Now im even more confused.

so, lemme get this straight.
1.all Legions were allowed librarians.
2.Council of nikea took place and then sorcery was tottaly banned apart from astropaths and navigators.-(what happened to the librarians? :huh: )
3.1(+?) primarch kept his librarians but was soon given a severe warning by Daddy.
But,contradictingly,one bit of fluff says that when Angron and his physcopath brigade went to khorne they slaughtered all of their librarians(y'know. the ones they were'nt allowwed to have) and offered their souls up to khorne.
AND as Red said the quote from false Gods states that all Legions had Librarians?unless False Gods took place before the CON
.............
.......
....
my brain hurts :(
DP

deadpool2345; Yeah, pretty much on the mark with that statement.

And to add to the confusion; Wolf Priests. They appear to have been around Pre-Heresy, and were Psykers. It's hinted at in Wolf's Honour and backed up by the 13th Company's background.

Kinda surprising considering how Leman Russ and his Legion were towards Sorcery. It might indicate an actual difference, to PH Astartes, between Sorcery and Psyker power.
Even in Angels of Darkness the DA Librarian is called a Witch by the Fallen, and not a Sorceror.

I think the distinction is that Librarians develop their psychic powers, however they are manifested, and ONLY those powers. They were very useful members of the Legions and so were allowed in their limited capacities. The Thousand Sons practiced sorcery which was a developmemt of powers they did not initially manifest through research of the warp and the nature of their powers. This led to a telepath developing, say, pyrokinetic powers as well instead of simply becoming a stronger telepath. The Thousand Sons became obsessed with this and the Emperor knew that they were getting too close to Tzeentch, as he was aware of the dangers of Chaos.

Not sure here but from what i read in the Horus Heresy collected visions not all the Legions had Libararoins. If you on page 92

Leman Russ argued that the libararoins where simply warlocks by any other name. Corax and Rogal Dorn refused to commit their legions to battles alongside those fielding Librarians . Mortarion accused Magnus the red of sorcery.

so just form reading that and it's over view i don't see those 4 legions haveing librarians or at the very least Corax and Rogal Dorn sense they wouldn't even fight on the same battle field if any where present.

Wolf Priests or Rune Priests? Wolf Priests are the Chaplains of the Wolves, whereas the Rune Priests are the Librarians.

I wonder if the runic and shamanistic majicks of the Rune Priests means that they're not viewed as Psykers or Sorcerors but more like soothsayers, something harking back to the old times on Fenris.

@Deadpool: Goes pretty much like this:

1. All Legions are allowed Librarians. Magnus and his Thousand Sons are heavily involved in training the Librarian Divisions for most Legions that had them.

2. There is increasing disquiet and complaints from a number of Primarchs and other influential officials over the use of psychic powers by the Legions and the similarities it has to'magics' used by corrupted enemies of the Imperium. The Emperor calls a meeting to discuss the issue.

3. The Council of Nicaea bans the use of 'Sorcery'. All Librarians are absorbed back into the ranks and ordered not to use their psychic gifts, as are the Primarchs. Magnus is given a severe warning to cease his research by the Emperor.

The World Eaters bit of background could still be valid - after all, the marines would know which of their number had been Librarians before they were banned from using their powers. Or, of course, the World Eaters could have ignored the ruling of the council - they were already ignoring the Emperor's ban on use of neural implants on their marines.

The full quote in False Gods states that all Legions had Librarian Departments before Nicaea, but were then banned from having them.

@Fortronus:

Going by that quote, it indeed appears that those 4 Legions didn't have Librarians, at least by the time of the Council (though they might have had Librarian departments to start off with, and disbanded them themselves).

@Vredesbyrd:

I'm inclined to agree with you about the Rune Priests if they were indeed around - Russ probably wouldnb't have seen them as Librarians proper, and given their different traditions (and Russ' well known dislike of Magnus) I doubt they were ever trained by Magnus and his cronies, thus distancing them from the corruption Russ associated with Prospero's 'Red Sorcerers'.

Do I recall correctly that Angron smashed up all his own legion's psykers?

Off the record, Graham today made the following statements:

1) The Council of Nikaea will take place during A Thousand Sons

2) "Sorcery" is considered the use of psychic power or ritual magick in an aggressive manner.

3) Sorcery was banned, psykers and Librarians were not.

4) Israfael of the Dark Angels was present at the Council.

As for anything more, I can't say. Watch the upcoming BLTV06 for more info on the novel! :D