Hoping for a bit of discussion on this one.

Whenever I come to making a list, each and every squad seems to have a power fist in it. I suppose I'm obsessed with all squads being able to take on anything the enemy can throw at it. Problem is, you soon run out of different Fist components, and it just doesn't seem terribly fluffy to have all sergeants/aspiring champions outfitted with a Fist as standard...

Does this occur with your lists? Do you consciously try and hold back on choosing power fists for a more "fluffy" approach? Or do you just go the whole way and give them spare ones just in case?

Any comments on this subject would be greatly appreciated, especially concerning tactics to compensate for lack of Fists.

you realise the title makes this thread sound very...gay...yes?


i dont use fists...i usually just take a power sword and.or plasma pistol....but depending on the sqauds tactics i may take somthing different...like if they were holding a trench id take a storm bolter to make the squad more shooty

:D Maybe... thankfully, I'm confident enough in my sexuality to overcome the potential ribbing... Trust you to bring that up... :D

So what do you do when a wraithlord marches into the squad with power sword and plasma pistol?

Well, since I'm no good at über-optimisation, and more the like of a Care Bear making only fluff-extremistic lists, maybe my advice won't be taken into advice.

For my part, I'm more along the line of Dorn: no powafist, but power swords and plasma pistol. Eventually, a plasmagun and/or a meltagun (depending on the traits). Anyway, always Frags and Kraks. A "Tactical" Marines: it says the marine should be able to face any encounter, so: mine are fully loaded xD (btw, for GW: give the damn loyalists a boltpistol and the nades, like the traitors!)

But anyway, for the wraithlord, just take action for him never to reach your marines, that's tactic! xD
(This said, I'm totally against including heavy weapons in tac squads, but if you feel the need for strong support: lascan/missile launcher)

One day a cybot podded next to my dev squad and killed it in one turn....since then I use powerfists in almost everything that can carry one :D

I have one Powerfist in my Chaos Marine army, on my Havoc Aspiring Champion - this is not for tactical reasons, but because it looks cool having him pointing with a big ass fist! I don't have any other Powerfists in the army though because I pay points to get +1 Iniative on my models (Icon of Slaanesh) and there's no way on Holy Terra that I'm going to add another +25pts on top of that to double my Strength and to knock my Iniative down to 1! Everything in my Chaos army has the Icon of Slaanesh, even the Havocs. After all almost everyone is getting 2 attacks in Close Combat so I'd be a fool not to. As for the Wraithlord issue? I'll shoot him in the face with Sonic Weapons, or stick my Spawn in front of it.

As for my Emperor's Children army I doubt I'll have many Powerfists in there either. They have their uses but I don't like them, I like my Iniative too much to sacrifice it, its one of the most important characteristics in the game - after all the game is decided in combat.

In terms of fluff Powerfists don't really fit the finesse of the Emperor's Children for me - for Iron Hands, Iron Warriors and other uncouth Legions it makes perfect sense, but not for the Sons of The Phoenecian.

I've got to agree with Brother Tiriel here too, I just think Heavy Weapons in Tactical Squads is daft. No other army in the game is restricted to it, and this boys and girls is why Cleanse and Purify was created. I can pay double points for a second Assualt Weapon, but everyone else can have one anyway, or having moving Heavy Weapons? Well alright then, you've twisted my arm.

I've never seen a powerfist that didn't die before reaching the enemy. Any dreadnought foolish enough to base a Devastator sergeant deserves a fisting, though...

Hmm, you must be, or be going up against some very powerful shooty armies... Then again, with my Black Templars, I generally have 11 or 12 Power Fists on the board....

I think the most I've ever had on the table was 3 at 1500pts... and that was an eBay army! I just find that the 'strike last' rule means they die before they get to fist someone up...

Well, with 11 or 12 in an army, surely they don't, but that's damn cheesy man!

("Boooh!" screams the crowd)

I stick with my idea: powa swords, krak nades, eventually assault squad with fusion bombs, and if you really want to be borderline cheesy, meltagun. But you'll need to move fast to come in range.

True tactic does not lay on taking only things that obviously work and can be seen as such without openning the dex, but in finiding combos that are damn powerfull and may not be seen as such until they kill you xD
Damn hard with the marines, since it's a "buy the codex and win" army. But you can do it! xD

Now Melta Bombs are totally in my field of strategy - plus the whole squad can take them! :D

well im on the other side of the fence here. I hate power fist personally but i have one in all my base tac squads. (ie missle launche flamer power fist and grenades F&K) but they are the only squad that gets them. no characters get them either. my other tac squads dont even have heavy weapons. I use the standard tac as a support squad filling a role in between dev and tac. (think second teir suppression unit).

my 2 cents.

As an addendum to my rant above I'd just like to add this thought on Power Fists...

Consider if you will the humble Space Marine Chaplain. For a sum this gentleman comes to battle in Power Armour, wielding a Crozius Arcanum and bearing a Rosarius and the Litanies Of Hate. So we know he's a hard ass. Now consider the Power Fist - double strength, Iniative 1. If we give said Power Fist to said Chaplain wondrous things can happen. You have created a killing machine that Chuck Norris will be scared of. Why? I'll tell you. You decide what weapon to use each combat. Against Troops or anyone else with one Wound use the Crozius and reap them like corn, even better do it on the charge with an Assault Unit backing you up. Against other Independant Characters and other multi-Wound monstrosties Power Fist them in the face so they run crying to their Mommas!

Basically his Power Armour and Rosarius keep him alive, even if he's using the Power Fist, and Litanies of Faith ensures that when he smites, he smites mightily.

Try this in your next game. It works a treat.

your scared of a wraithlord....how sad...

jus load the squad with a melta gun, or more if you have the trait....and if you let it get 12in away from you before you shoot the melta at it then thats sad

The aforementioned Chaplain better be hiding in a BIG squad, otherwise I will kill him from across the table with something suitably devastating... :D

Plus a PF and a CA means no ranged weapons. I would always go for a pistol and a weapon if possible.

heh, not when you've got a holy orb and he's sporting a jump pack... One of my favourite set ups...

I just choose them because there is nothing more annoying than getting stuck in combat with a big horde of orcs who will pin you down long enough for the killa kans to charge in and rip you apart after a few turns, with nothing you can do about it other than to die... It's not as beardy as it sounds as Templars don't get v sergeants...

Rogal, you do realise that a wraithlord is a multi-wound model and has Toughness 8 right? One meltagun won't do squat...

I suppose the gist of it is that Power Fists are too good an option. You can either take a power weapon and ignore armour saves (woohoo) or take a power fist, strike last (no problem for v. sergeants/initiates with careful positioning in combat) but wound most things on 2s with no saves and usually instakill... Oh, and have a good chance of bashing tanks as well. Hmm...

Maybe that's why they're getting nerfed next edition (rumoured)...

According to the rumours the game as we know it is going to cease to exist in Fifth Edition, its going to become like Fantasy in Space, with bloody combat resolution like Fantasy. Maybe they're making the games easier to learn so kids'll play them both and spend more money.

I have a strange feeling that when Fifth Edition comes out that I'm going to end up taking my Fourth Edition Rulebook, and Third Edition Chaos Codex (the good one with the seperate Books of the Gods) and cry in a corner for quite some time.

When oh when will GW realise that adults have more money than children?

the way gw looks at it if they make the kids want it then they will wine to mommy and daddy for it so they get the parents money anyway. in their mind.

I always found that whining made me miserable and never got me any monetary bonus anyway.

Surely if Apocalypse has shown us anything, it'd be better to keep old hands in the game with compatible rules rather than complete rewrites?

Anyway, when I was at GWHQ the other week, I was chatting to one of the designers about this sort of thing. Apparently, Andy Chambers was sacked for trying to re-write 40k, not for failing to produce on time as was popularly stated. They said complete rewrites are generally not feasible because they render 80% of a product line useless...

Having said that, the system that Andy wrote was sold as the Starship Troopers game, and is the most original and playable new system of recent years... :rolleyes:

I know that its already been discussed, but...
I, normally, if I dont want the army to be fluff-driven and themed, I give every tac squad a p.fist. I just find them more useful than your average p.sword, and they look badass. Its also usually not too much of a hinderance points-wise. But that does not mean I have a huge amount in my army - I usually dont have a great deal of tac squads, usually 3 or 4 at the most.

okay lads, here we go... xD

1rst command of the sacro-saint Hobbyist Tables:
THOU SHALT MAKE YOU ARMY LISTS FLUFF-WISE!

2nd command on the same tables:
THOU SHALT ACCEPT LOSING BECAUSE OF THE FIRST COMMAND!

3rd command, still same tables
IF MARINE, THOU SHALT NOT USE THE CHEESE OF THE POWER FIST BECAUSE OF THE FIRSTS COMMANDS!

I'll print that in and on your heads guys! :D
Just something, my vision of thing, but it's related to our discussion:
For me, PH Gaming is not at all about winning, losing, and so on. If you want a PH army, it's because you like the fluff, look, and feel of this particular era, and of its parituclar armies. Therefore, no cheesy things, you just put your army fluff-wise, with all the drawbacks in gaming against cheesy adversaries.

Plus, it's more challenging, 'cause you have to win against all odds ^^

Well, my two radical cents xD

I'm fully with you on that one T. I was kinda hoping to promote a kinda tactical brainstorm on how to deal without power fists (instead of the DUH! method of "shoot it before it gets to you...")...

Update I suppose. I can confirm (don't ask me how I know) that powerfists are being "nerfed" (where does that expression come from, by the way?). So you don't get an extra attack unless you have two power fists... Same for all other special close combat weapons, barring the humble power sword...

On the up though, plasma only ever overheats on a 1 again, no matter how many shots you fire (thank the lord...).

What? That's ridiculous! That's well mental, utterly pointless and goes against the point of actually taking any of these weapons? Is this a rumour you've found or has it been confirmed by some official source? It'd mean people'd only take Power Weapons and paired Lightning Claws from now on, which would make all armies look the same! I really hope this is just a rumour as it'd make everything broken and wrong. This definately does not smell of awesomeness or win.

Sadly, this is not rumour, you'll have to trust me on that... On the upside, SM commanders now have BS6...

Well that's just bloody stupid.

As for BS6 what the f*** is the point in BS6? BS5 hits on a 2+ for crying out loud! So are Marine captains now going to be hitting on a 1+? BS6 has a place in Fantasy with its modifiers for ranged combat, but not 40K! This just gets more and more ridiculous with each passing day. If it does get this bad I'm going to go capture whomsoever is repsonsible and force them to make it better again. 5th Ed. is starting to really smell of FAIL right now.

As far as I know BS5 till BS10 all hit on a 2+

Yes they do. Then they get a re-roll, starting at 6+ for BS6 and improving as it gets higher.

Deep strike rules now have a table. If any one of the models is in impassable terrain due to the scatter, you roll. Three outcomes: the WHOLE unit is destroyed (yes, you read that right), your opponent places the unit ANYWHERE on the board (bar impassable terrain of course) with no scatter or the unit goes back into reserves.
If this happens towards the end of the game, the unit counts as destroyed.
Oh, and difficult terrain counts as dangerous terrain for deep striking units. Guess the termis are going to be using a whole load more land raiders...