what is a difference between a neobak that goes under your finger and one that goes over it
like this
http://media.putfile.com/neobak-question

A Neobak that has the pen going underneath a finger (like in Neobak Fall) is an incomplete Neobak. You only do 1.0 rotation before letting the pen slide under the finger for an extra half rotation...I guess you could call the "under the finger part" a Fingerless Passaround Reverse.

A real Neobak is like a Fingerless Shadow Reverse, done at the base of the fingers. It has 1.5 rotations and travels on top of the fingers.

Sorry, this isn't correct. When the neobak falls back into the slot it's .5 & then it uses another .5 going under the finger. The rotation might be mixed together but when its done neobak+fingerless pass has 2 total spins. You can prove this by doing the trick with a pen with red on one end & blue on the other, or an MX or something. During neobak fall the pen has the same end forward in 23 slot as it did when you started it.

I was wrong in naming the Passaround Reverse. I will give a new breakdown that still does not include any 2.0 rotations for any single part of the combo. Imagine starting the combo with the pen out in front of you. The pen is single-sided (RSVP MX if you like) with the tip facing across your body: to the left if you are right-handed.

Breakdown of Neobak Combo, with notes...

1. Neobak 1.0 12-12 This starts the combo. The pen starts facing across your body and does a single rotation: 0.5 for the push + 0.5 on top of the 12 slot. The pen is now facing the same direction, across the body. 1.0 rotation. This sets up the next Neobak right from the end of the first incomplete one. If you had performed an entire Neobak 1.5 12-12, the pen would have to travel over the Middle finger, doing something like a Pass Reverse 12-23: fairly sloppy looking.

2. Neobak 1.0 12-23 Upon further inspection, it makes more sense to see the start of the next Neobak in the 12 position instead of the 23. The pen is facing the same direction as you would like in a Neobak: the tip is facing across the body. Instead of starting in the 23 slot, it is starting in the 12 slot and traveling underneath the Middle finger. The pen ends up in the 23 slot with the pen facing across the body. 1.0 rotation.

3. Neobak 1.5 23-34 This starts just like the previous Neobak: the pen is facing across the body. The Neobak starts in the 23 and travels underneath the Ring finger. This last Neobak inlcudes the full 1.5 rotation because there is no longer any need to position the pen to travel underneath any more fingers. The full catch will have the pen facing the opposite direction that it started in: away from the body.

So, Neobak Fall looks like it should be broken down, in terms of rotations, as:
1.0 12-12 > 1.0 12-23 > 1.5 23-34 = 3.5 rotations total.

----
If I'm still wrong, I would like an experienced spinner to point out where I have made any mistakes, since I am always open to criticism. I may not agree with you, but I'm cool with hearing what you have to say. :lol:

You are really just over thinking it. It goes neobak 12-12 1.5 -> Fingerless pass normal 12-23 0.5 -> neobak 23-23 1.5 -> fingerless pass 23-34 0.5 -> neobak 34-34 1.5. Total spin: 5.5

Say you are doing this with a red & blue tipped dr. KT. Do a neobak 12 then pass it. Then do the first part of neobak fall. Both combinations have 2.0 spins. The fingerless pass is definitely a pass, in both situations it ends upw ith the original end out. If you start with the red end facing out, you end with the red end out both ways. By making the pass fingerless you can just do it right after the neobak utilizing the same spin, it changes the axis of rotation from a normal pass so that it goes along with the neobak.

Your second step of neobak 12-23 going under the hand is impossible, since that's not a neobak, and it also doesnt have the right amount of spin to it. It can't have 1.0 rotation if its starting in 12, because it has 1.0 during the spin & catch; where does the rotation under the middle finger go? And in the original neobak, how does it become 1.0? Where does the catch go? You're missing a full rotation that is missing again when it repeats over 23-34

My breakdown is pretty much the consensus that i've seen in past discussions & i think its the only really acceptable one, unless the naming committee decides to rename neobak to fl pass into something different.

edit: I do see what you're saying, that by raising your middle finger you simply bypass both the catch & any pass that might happen, but thats just not how it is...

lol i thought this was the 1 answer topic, like short answers yes or no :rolleyes:

It for sure isn't 5.5 spins.

I always thought it was:

That would make 4.5 spins.

Do a neobak fall but stop when the pen lands in 23. The end landing out will be the same end you start with, so the spin amount has to be even. If you do a neobak 12-12 then a normal (use your fingers) pass, it really looks exactly the same, the spin just changes type.

I think the problem is that people look for a full rotation underneath the middle finger but you have to realize that the catch of the first neobak actually changes the position of the pen even though you dont follow all the way through. The pen only moves .5 under the middle finger after falling .5 on the catch in 12, but the .5 isnt completely followed through. However it is definitely present & it can be proved by how the pen ends if you stop the trick in the 23 slot (the same end will be out as you started with)

@frisbee: the only catch in Neobak Fall is of the final Neobak. For every other one, the catch is omitted to allow the pen to travel through the fingers. If you perform a normal Neobak with a catch (1.5 rotations) it is impossible to have the pen travel underneath the bottom finger in the way that it does in Neobak Fall. You would have to do something like an Inverse Sonic Reverse to allow the pen to continue its motion underneath the bottom finger if you do not cut off the catch. The pen traveling in the wrong direction. That is why you have to cut off the Neobak at 1.0 rotation for the first 2 Noebaks. You substitute the normal catch for the motion underneath the bottom finger.

@Eriror: I thought that too until I recently got around to actually doing Neobak Fall. >_<

After the pen travels underneath the finger, there only another 0.5 rotation on top of the next set of fingers. Then, the pen goes back to traveling under the next finger, until the final Neobak 23-34 the has a full catch.

@frisbee: I don't think that anyone looks for a full rotation under the Middle finger. 0_o

Edit: I'm uploading a video to Youtube with a walk-through. It's huge because I have no idea how to shrink video file sizes. >_< I'll post a link when it's finished.

I do it like sketching....

total of 3.5 spins.....

just like bakfall, theres alot of different versions im sure....


EDIT: sketching you're the man.

@sketching: Well its going to get very futile arguing this if we continue, but I see it completely different from you. The way I see it, your way doesn't add up correctly & doesnt include true neobaks. When I do a neobak fall my breakdown feels exactly right to me, but obviously not to you

As you say, the catch is omitted, but i don't think its omitted, it just blended right into the fingerless pass (as I said to eriror, the catch isnt complete, you dont allow the pen to rotate through but it still changes the position & counts as .5 because it alters where the tip ends)

:P I think it is time to agree to disagree. Both breakdowns work but I dont think you can really conclude which one is correct esp. when we are both very sure of ourselves.

you know guys... we could just wait for the new naming system Strat made to come out and then just use that, rather than arguing about something that will be obsolete in a few days anyway... :P

Thread split.


Here is a step-by-step of the Neobak Combo, as I know it to be.

@frisbee: Neobaks do not travel underneath a finger to another slot. In my breakdown, the beginning of the second and third Neobaks are altered to include the pen traveling underneath the fingers. Since Neobaks never travel between slots underneath fingers, my last breakdown may still not be correct.

I still stand by the first Neobak only having a single rotation, as shown by the video a linked to above.
The second Neobak may (or may not) include the 0.5 under the finger and may only be reduced to the 0.5 rotation above the 23 slot.
The third Neobak may also not include the 0.5 rotation underneath the Ring finger and only inlcude the last 1.0 of the spin and catch.

Once the Research Department clears the new hybrid notation, I will be better able show what I am saying.

Ok see here is the problem. When you catch the first neobak, you dont allow it to spin all the way. The catch is present & it accounts for .5 of a spin because it changes the position of the pen. if you were to let it swing all the through the slot, it would actually complete the spin. This problem is that the pen switches positions but it doesnt complete the rotation.

Here is a similar problem. Suppose I am holding the pen completely vertically in 23. Without rotating it, i move my 3 finger off & put my 1 finger on it. I just passed the pen from 23 to 12, but it didn't spin. Did it complete .5 or not? I passed it, and the definition of a pass is that it has .5 rotation. If i complete the motion it would have .5 so it's still a pass (by my logic.)

Thus, the problem is that the neobaks are complete but not actually completed. In addition, the fingerless pass isn't either completed; the pen stays in the same horizontal line even though it's passed from finger to finger.

The problem this creates is that you perform tricks that dont complete their spin; they alter the position of the pen but dont finish the trick before beginning another. Thus you can break it down to be either 3.5. 4.5, or 5.5 spins. In a way, it's similar to the problem of, say, bak to fl rev. If the bak isn't caught, how do you break it down? To solve this, we need a notation for hybrid & abbreviated tricks, which hopefully strat will provide us.

I don't see how a non-existant catch can both be non-existant and present. 0_o

If it were to swing into the normal catch position, it would no longer be in a suitable position to move underneath the bottom finger, as I've already stated. To keep the pen moving with the same rotation and motion after doing a complete Neobak, you would either have to do a Pass Reverse over the finger or do an Inverse Sonic under the finger. The pen is rotating in the wrong direction after a complete Neobak to seemlessly transition from Neobak 1.5 to Fingerless Passaround Reverse (or whatever the under-the-finger movement should be called).

I don't see a problem at all. If the pen does not actually do anything, then no, you have not done a Pass. All you have done is move your fingers around. Moving your fingers without moving the pen does not constitute doing a trick, it only means that you've moved your fingers.

That makes no sense. You can't partially complete something and say it is complete. By saying that it is "not actually complete" you acknowledge that it is, in fact, not complete.

I can agree with you that the Fingerless movement underneath the fingers are incomplete. But that has no bearing on the fact that the Neobaks are also incomplete. Which is the point that I am trying to get across. Neobak Fall does not consist of complete Neobaks. There's nothing wrong with that, I was only originally pointing out the fact that they are incomplete.

After further thinking... if I conclude that Neobaks cannot have the pen traveling underneath any fingers, then the second Neobak really only consists of a Fingerless Top Spin 23-23 and really isn't a Neobak at all. 0_0 It also means that the last Neobak is also incomplete. Which means...

Neobak Fall has no complete Neobaks! It's just a really messed up hybrid combo that shouldn't be called Neobak Fall at all!
:hah:

ahh... good times, good times.

Edit:
I agree that the breakdown of Bak > FL TA Rev is also wrong and should use a hybrid notation. But, that also has no relation to my point that Neobak Fall contains incomplete Neobaks, because I am thoroughly convinced that they are actually incomplete. Just like the Backaround that you pointed out.

I think I may make a video explaining my point of view tomorrow because I can't articulate myself well at all through text, but thanks for the discussion today sketching. What i don't get is why you say it doesnt work with a normal neobak catch to pass. If i do a neobak, then pass (normal pass not fingerless), then neobak 23, pass to 34, neobak 34, to me it looks exactly like a much less smooth neobak fall. I think maybe you are getting confused with pass & pass reverse? Neobak catch goes in the direction of a pass normal, not reverse as you said. It would be a passaround rev but not pass rev.

Anyway i am going to bed. Goodnight!

edit: No offense meant when i said you're confused, i could be the confused one. It just seems to me like neobak catch works fine with a pass

hmm? i tot all the neobaks in neobakfall are only 0.5 spins? to me it IS a rev shadow w/o charge meaning here is only 0.5 rounds per neobak.. cept the last neobak which is a complete one..
so its:
neobak 12-12( 0.5) > pass 12-23(0.5) > neobak 23-23(0.5) > pass 23-34(0.5) > neobak 34-34(0.5)+proper catch(0.5)

isnt this 3.0 spins?
unless there is the starting part before the 1st neobak which it also 0.5 spins...

so its:
starting thing(0.5) > neobak 12-12( 0.5) > pass 12-23(0.5) > neobak 23-23(0.5) > pass 23-34(0.5) > neobak 34-34(0.5)+proper catch(0.5)

total: 3.5 spins?
cant be 4.5 or 5.5 cos u cant count the ending part of neobak in a complete neobak AND the pass at the SAME time and jus add the spins..

lol jus counting the number of spins becomes so big.. i mean who cares as along as it looks the same.. :lol:

http://media.putfile.com/Neobak-Fall-Discussion


hope this helps <_<


PS lol @ futile.....

were u talking? cos my sound is spoiled and i cant hear.. :lol:
let me infer..
firstly u did a real neobakfall.. then u did a 'neobakfall' but not really one(neobak 12-23 > 23-34> 34-34..
then finally u did a 'neobakfall' wif some funky kinda inverse looking passes.. now that only confused me since my sound isnt working.. care to explain with text?

yea i was talking....

basically i did and explained three different "versions" of neobak fall, then at the end said theres no reason to argue about it, there are like a gagillion ways to do a "neobak fall" and there is no one "real" way to do it.....

same w/ backfall, theres a generally accepted one, but all of them are still bakfalls....

ah.. cool.. i think i'll stick with the 1st method.. it seems most people do it.. but i will learn all 3 anyway..

A complete neobak ends with half a charge rev, being a fingerless shadow rev. However, for the neobak fall, the charge rev is omitted, thus the neobak is incomplete. Yes, you may do a whole neobak into pass, but that is not the current popular way.

@frisbee: I may not have been clear...

It is not impossible to do a Pass after a complete Neobak, but it is impossible to do a complete Neobak > Pass without adding more hand and pen movement than is in the currently defined Neobak Fall Combo.

The current Neobak Fall has never had complete Neobaks in the entire combo. If you do:
Neobak 1.5 12-12 > Pass Reverse 12-23 > Neobak 1.5 23-23 > Pass 23-34 > Neobak 1.5 34-34

...you are simply doing a combo of Neobaks and Passes, but not the currently accepted version of the Neobak Fall Combo.

It's like Kam's Neobak Combo. It is a specific combo that has a Neobak in it. It is not THE Neobak Combo, but Kam's Neobak Combo. There are obviously many other combos that could be a called Neobak Combos, but only a single one can be called Kam's Neobak Combo.

Go ahead and do complete Neobaks followed by Passes, but you will have to spell it all out because that is not what will be expected if you were to just say that you did the Neobak Fall.

thanks for the vid strat...this thread was starting to confuse me way more way more than it should have

Alrighty *cracks knuckles* here's how I see The Neobak Fall Combo in terms of an interrupted trick combo:

Neobak 12-12[p][s 0.5] ~ Fingerless Passaround Revese 12-23 [s 0.5] ~ Fingerless Topspin 23-23 [s 0.5] ~ [Fingerless Passaround Reverse 23-34 [s 0.5] ~ Neobak 34-34 [s 0.5][c]

0.5 push + 0.5 spin + 0.5 spin + 0.5 spin + 0.5 spin + 0.5 spin + 0.5 catch = 3.5 spins total. :banana:

With the removal of the Middle Neobak as a trick, the Fingerless Passarounds Reverse (under-the-finger movements) are allowed to be seen as full 0.5 rotations without pushes or catches. The combo can no longer be called Neobak Fall, but that's okay with me. I never liked that the combo included extra, non-Neobak tricks anyway. :lol:

Ok
I kepting looking at the one question thread and I was like wtf I thought I posted that.
Well anyways
I just wanna know which is a neobak I really am not this critical about tricks.