Vidoes:
Mats (challenger): http://media.putfile.com/Mats---000-Challenge
000: http://media.putfile.com/000-for-Mats

Judge 1:

Difficulty: 0
Speed: 0
Smoothness: -1
Creativity: +1
Variety: -.5
Filming: 0

Total: -.5 (1 Vote to 000)

Difficulty was hard to judge since Mats used some out there tricks, but I figured they about evened out since the 000 had a lot more standard difficult tricks. Speed was nice on both. Mats really needs to work on smoothness, while the 000 owned! Mats used much more creative tricks with the hand transfers and all. Variety was also tough because Mats used a lot of stranger tricks, but the lack of a lot of common staples such as charge-pass and sonic based tricks hurt him here. Filming coulda been a bit better for both, 000 should have clipped his vid and Mats shoulda had the infinities on screan a bit better.

Judge 2:

Difficulty: -.5
Speed: -.5
Smoothness: -1.5
Creativity: 1
Variety: 1
Filming: -.5

Total: -1 (1 Vote to 000)

Judge 3:

Difficulty: +0.5 It's hard to evaluate the difficulty of the two transfers, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Mats, since the 000 hasn't exactly used the hardest tricks / linkages either.

Speed: 0, appropriate speed on both sides.

Smoothness: -1.5 Mats' smoothness is terrible. The combo is not very coherent.

Creativity: +1.0 The transfers were good, although it's nothing very new. 000's combo wasn't very "fresh".

Variety: +1.0, Clearly Mats used a variety of different tricks.

Filming: -0.5 Mats' infinities were off-screen. I didn't like the fact that the 000 didn't properly cut the combo and left 5 seconds of dead time before.

Total: +.5 (1 Vote to Mats)


Overall Totals:
Mats: 1 Vote
000: 2 Votes

The 000 has won, Mats may challenge again in 28 days time.

Wow... I didn't know every combo HAVE to have sonics in them. In fact, I encourage people to stay away from using common tricks.

they dont have to have these tricks, but when the lack of them leads to retarded/unsmooth linkages then it definatly hurts you to not have them

I agree, I think if Mats filming woulda have been better his scores would be higher

Well, here it is, the anti-Korean/"creative" style vs the Korean style. And what happened? The Korean style spinner got fucking ill, and Mats failed to make a coherent combo. Honestly, if anyone looks at this and goes, "Well Mats clearly has this battle" they must be delusional.
If this is the creativity you think spinning needs, I beg to differ. All I saw was 18 TAs, you throwing the pen to your other hand, you throwing the pen into your elbow joint (wtf?), half of an infinity combo, and a very unsatisfying ending. For you to have the nerve to ask for a 000 the day after you posted and quit judging, you should have come out with something better than this pile. And you know, it wouldn't have been a big deal if you weren't so egotistical. People would have said, "Well it's just a really bad spinner challenging a 000." But unfortunately, its the kid whose been criticizing everyone else for their lack of creativity, but doesn't realize his own lack of skill.
Well Mats, now I know why you dislike Korean style spinning...and it's because it kicks the shit out of your style of spinning. I didn't want to do this, because I have to turn in my ladder vid to you, but I had to. Good day to you sir.

im glad someone had the balls to say it, now run. run far away before zombo castrates you.

dude nobody said anything about Mats winning this battle and he lost so... I don't see why you're complaining :unsure:

yes, that's why he lost points in smoothness. If smoothness is a different category from variety, why are you penalizing variety for lack of smothness?

agreed, he shoulda picked one or the other, but like we all know, all the categories overlap in pen spinning, so its hard to judge.

well to me it makes no sense to penalize variety just because its missing commonly used tricks???

the goal of variety is to use uncommon tricks and in general a wide range of tricks...

for any given trick in a combo, you have to ask yourself: "Why did I include this trick. What is the meaning of this trick in relation to the next one, the previous one, and the whole combo? How does this trick help in the appreciation of the combo?" If you can't answer those questions satisfactorily, remove the trick.

hahaha, Please remember that not everybody is a qualified judge. Most spinners tend to group things together.

I agree w/ the second part of that statement, but not the first.


if someone uses only common tricks, then variety goes down. if they use only arounds, variety goes down. if they use only uncommon tricks, variety goes down.

variety IMO is using a little of everything....

Well, I'm not sure you can include uncommon in variety. Uncommon tricks can help add to your variety, but using an uncommon trick doesn't necessarily mean your combo had variety. Mats, for example, did a thousand TAs, threw his pen a couple times, and did an infinity combo (which you can't see all of). The 000, although he didn't have any really uncommon tricks, used a lot more tricks than Mats did.

not necessarily, if all your uncommon tricks are all of the same type. Like for example combo consists of 6 uncommon aerials, then yes thats not very varied.

But you can have uncommon tricks of different kind and never use any staple tricks and it's fine.

@ shortassassin, according to the judge, Mats lost points because he DIDN't use common tricks, which make no sense at all.

which is why "common" isnt really a group in pen spinning, we have families for that... but he didnt do tricks from many families either .... but that has nothing to do w/ the staples, so i dont fully understand that judge's comment either

that is correct, variety is about using a wide array of tricks from different families, and has nothing to do with the popularity of the tricks themselves.

I agree that the judge phrased it poorly. What I believe he was trying to say was that the inclusion of some basic tricks that wouldn't have been hard to add to the combo could have helped Mats in the variety category.

LOL you call tossing the pen to your elbow a trick?!! Might as well throw my pen out the window and call it a super aerial!! I dunno bout you but Mats looked pretty retarded in that vid, no offense :P

maybe the execution isn't there, but the potential of body spinning is very real. the future of pen spinning will encompass the whole body and the environment.

I seriously don't see how there is even a debate here. Shortassassin's first post in this thread said it all. The only possible way you can defend Mats' combo or choice of tricks is if you're his friend or you've bought into his gimmick. His video was seriously terrible & it's ridiculous that he got even 1 vote. Filming, angle, variety of tricks, performance of tricks, smoothness, linkage, everything is really & truly just dismal.

Try as hard as you want to argue for creativity in pen spinning, but face it, high quality combos come from mastery & usage of all kinds of tricks, be they baks, fingerarounds, charge/pass hybrids, sonics, aerials, whatever. You can't put a good video together without everything. Look at the most creative spinners right now-bonkura, eriror, angmaramyon, they include new elements in videos all the time. Bonkura uses rare tricks like triangle pass, angmaramyon introduces ridiculous variations of through pass combos & really strong aerial finishing tricks, & eriror basically uses any trick you can think of, but they all have one thing in common-mastery of fluid charge, sonic, pass & around combos. You can't be a complete spinner without them, & the way to be creative is definitely NOT to refuse to use charge. That's just being lazy & turning your sloth into a gimmick.

I'm not going to get too far into this argument, since I don't know what the judges were thinking, but heres my take on variety.

I see variety as a kind of checklistto see how many tricks out of the various families have been used. For example, Mats combo:

Charge/Pass/Sonic (I tend to lump these): No
Arounds/Baks: Yes
Shadows/Neobaks/Spins: No
Infinities: Yes
Aerials: Yes
"Crazy Shit": Kinda, but I tend to consider this more creativity.

The 000 on the other hand had everything except aerials I believe (not watching it again, so don't bitch :P) Also when you consider that the two categories Mats lacked have a large variety of tricks even within them its seems obvious to me that the 000 in fact used more different tricks. Therefore higher variety... Hell if someone wanted they could just count the number of different tricks used in each combo and use a number ratio... but thats a bit extreeme imo.

you also have to take into account the length of the combo, basically variety should be taken as "lack of repetition".

you can also have a combo nicely split up so that you have a bunch of sonics, followed by a bunch of aerials then a bunch of baks, etc... and it's not "varied" but it's repetitive.

You guys are fucking messed up and cruel.

After all the things mats has done for us. He was the one that started the pro and intermediate leagues. He sacrificed so much for us. And now he is runnin ghte ladder that most of u guys are in it. He was the one that started the elite six that is still succesful. He sacrificed soo much time to run all these things for us.

1 critism is fine but reading all the things that are here. U guys are messed. He was trying something new with his vid, and no one said anything about the nice creativity in his vid. I personaly like the elbow stall. I realize that the 000's video is better than mats but whats will all the critisism. FOr god sakes, on post says it all. U dont have to say the same thing over and over agian. ANd scott, if mats quit pen spinnign and left the board, do u know what would happen? the ladder would get messed up bigtime. U guys are all messed up. Mats is the last of the old school generation and his spinning is different than the new korean style and i respect that. You guys need to learn to respect it too.

I'm not the last of the old school generation, but I am probably the most active and also probably the worst. If you wanna see some good old skool style spinning from an active spinner, I suggest ya'll should go and watch Yoah from DPSB.

I'm actually quite surprised I lost by such a small margin. I thought it would go more like:
Smoothness - - 1.5 or -2.0
Speed -1
Creativity + 1.5
Difficulty 0 or - .5
Variety 0 or -.5
Filming -.5
Giving the 000 a win of between 1.5 and 3.0 points.

mats already left once and i believe eburt did just a fine job of running the unfinished projects :thumb:
i mean if this was just a normal battle between two people we've never seen it obviously wouldnt be that big of a deal...
the reason people are making a big deal out of it is because of mats' attitude and the way he says he is the best pen spinner in the uk and that he is so much better than everyone because he is so creative
oh and by the way im a part of the old school generation i just dont spin like ive taken drugs every day of my life and fucked up my brain so that i cant do one thing that looks even close to good
and i dont think it takes too much time to do the ladder or elite six...
also he wasnt really trying something new
i didnt see anything new in his video maybe some things that were unused but definately not new
i used to do aerials too but i stopped because people said i was gimmicky but i guess you can praise him kasra cause he is mats and he was from upsb and hes old school

Wasn't that ChucKo?

Yupp. Ko started elite six. Nothing I have ever started has ever been successful, not in RD or on the rest of the forum. Hopefully however, CTT will be a success, we are already striding towards being an awesome team :vhappy:
The formation of CTT has also had a side affect of making me start to practice :eek:
Maybe in one more year, I won't lose to the 000! :banana:

I am the best spinner in the UK man...

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :blaugh: :blaugh: :blaugh:

@ Kasra: I think we all appreciate what Mats has done for UCPSB and until semi-recently I don't think many of us had any problems with him. It was the anti-Korean comments, the egotistical comments, and (for me) the rape thread, that made him become more unpopular. No one is looking down on his activity with the ES, ladder, etc, just some of his more recent (relatively speaking) posts and attitude. One of the reasons I didn't want to make that post was because I appreciate the time Mats puts in to the aforementioned activities.

Take the time to really get to know him and you'll see he's not as bad as he makes himself look.

That said, I didn't enjoy the 000's video as much as Mats's.

Okay...I've been itching to say it forever and I will just say it now..

I don't know if mats has CHANGED, or if he just was not acting like HIMSELF before.

Awhile back before his 4 month hiatus, Mats was a good guy, had open views on the korean vs oldschool issues, aside from a few minor (anger) problems that was pretty obvious. I used to talk to Mats on msn casually even. Take into concern at this time he was a good person and started the league as well as moderate the elite six.

But after the long hiatus Mats came back perhaps on...drugs, ecstasy, or something...

He began cussing korean styles for no apparent reason, starting fights and creating very...perverted threads.

His reasoning definitely dropped like a bomb, but he still had supporters.

Okay, who in the right mind would support someone acting like he does?

His friends that he is close with a few lines up.

Now, I am just presuming right now, but if I am correct, i would be supporting Mats (Which I definitely am not) right now. But that is because my personality makes me lose all the respect of one person in one event. After the korean flaming, then into the rape thread...whatever, just made me change my view on Mats.

Now the CTT comes up.

Okay, he started the CTT. Does not take too much work into starting a team-only running it. And I don't know if I am the only one who notices it, but it really looks like Eburt is running the thing.

But CTT brings up another problem. People who joined this team...perhaps realizing there is an open team and seemed rather important instantly becomes Mat's allies, regardless of their views before. And that's how I see you right now Kasra.

Also, I would like to say that we base battles, leagues, ladder on SKILL of spinner, not on PREFERENCE, so even if one gets popularity points if the video is creative or whatever...its just not gonna work.

As for Mats now, I think he has realized that how he was acting post hiatus was inappropriate, and is acting more like his post hiatus self. Hats off to him for the effort but he needs to realize that the things he has done will never leave him.

bleh, im offtopic. 000's combo was boring as hell, had very basic linking, but was harder than Mats so yeah.

And variety=/=creativity. Look at Ang, lol.

I honestly didn't want to get into this discussion, but you seem eager to stir up "controversy".

Maybe I'm missing something, but all I see here are a mass of false assumptions. Virtually nobody here for an instant thought Mats deserved to win the battle, as it was quite obvious from the videos the 000 had a more solid combo. Mats himself even expected to lose by a larger margin. It's hard to deny something exists when it's glaring at you in the face. If you think we only care about creativity in exclusion to everything else, then unfortunately it is only you who are delusional. At least Mats accepts his lack of skill, unlike Korean-style spinners who can't seem to acknowledge their lack of creativity.

You guys have some nerve verbally attacking the battler, as it has no relevance whatsoever to the battle. Mats' motivation for battling is immaterial. This thread is for discussing the videos, not for expressing your displeasure of other members. So please stop poisoning the atmosphere. Thanks.

well good job to Mats and to 000 i enjoyed both of your vids

and wtf <_<

lol toast you just got self-owned, kasra is in NGS.

CTT wasnt made for mats...

is it called the Mats Taxi Team? No.

CTT is just for fun, for people like me and mats who, while enjoying PS and wanting to take it to more extreme levels, but generally lack the boring repetetive "skill" that is defined by doing the same tricks over and over again.

Actually Toast, since i know you play MMOFPS, I'll define it in a way you can interpret (AKA, Im dumbing it down for you.)

Now, I played CS in a clan, competetively, you use the same 3 weapons, on the same 2 maps, using the same 4 tactics in the same hiding spots with the same people. This is a competetive PSing team.

CTT is more of a random clan, we use Dual Elite's and run around the map shouting "WHAR BE TEH TERRORISMS?" and shoot crap out of things. We have fun, and dont give a damn what the competetive teams think about us. Because without lesser's, the competative teams would have no fans.

<3. x

(Yes I do realise CT cant buy Dual Elites. And non CS'ers can ignore this, and i didnt describe it in WarRock terms because im too damn cool to mention WarRock anymore.)

Haha. On drugs BEFORE the haitus. Sober for 4 months (bar drinking once). On drugs AFTER the haitus.
But now I'm high on LIFE and drugs, and it's just amazing.
:lol:

Thats not what a meant^ @health

I meant that people joined the team not because Mats was in it, but because there WAS a team. However, they have subconsciously had their views changed for mats.

you however have probably some out-of-UCPSB connection with Mats as you are both from the UK, or whatever perhaps on msn. So you are not really a good example.

@firebird

Thats sort of stupid then. There was supposedly at lease one person expecting to win at least. Mats himself..

Why would he challenge an 000 then?

And thanks for "dumbing" it down for me Health. I appreciate it. :applaud:

EDIT- i seriously thought i saw kasra in the CTT midnight collab. I think i was hallucinating or watching two collabs at once and got them mixed up -__-''.

Don't worry Mats, I lost by -9+

Yeah mats thats a good life attitude!

So totally agree with assasin and toast.
And@ Eriror: would you say the same if 1 n00by unknown spinner had spin the combO? i dont think so...

@toast
i joined for the hell of it and i was already friends with Mats so what does that change
for me

Haha. I challenged an 000 cos I said '000 is easy' and Health said 'challenge one for a battle tomorrow then' so I did .That's why I did it.