http://www.maple-leaf-forever.com/?p=252

One of the best things I've read in a while.

LOL. Nice find G-L.

Like the Phillips Bakery reference.

So is that light blue font on a baby blue background? What the fuck? :lol:

I'll read it as soon as I've highlighted the whole thing and can make out what's written.

Edit: Okay, so I'm confused. It's kinda funny, but a tad angry or jaded maybe. Does the author hate football, hate us, or just having a go in general? I can't tell because it sounds like he knows football fans at least, but it sounds like he's been studying us solely to provided a retort when he encounters us at the bar.

I like it when the ominous and looming presence of the beautiful game interferes with the comfort zone of the traditional North American (...pause for commercial interference...brought to you by Doritos...) sports fan. ;)

Ehnn... I wouldn't recognize Mike Klukowski on the street. Caring more about club football than international football does not, ipso facto, make you any less of a football supporter. In fact, in the rest of the world international football, if anything, is the preserve of the casuals who only tune in every two or four years while club football is the meat and potatoes week-in, week-out diet of people who live the game. Until recently you couldn't do that in many places around here. I, for one, am glad that that has changed.

Just another Voyageurs chip-on-the-shoulder puff piece IMO.

Bob is one of the better ones, actually. But I understand where you are coming from. We tend to do things in reverse here when it comes to the club/country thing. Only that's changing and the hardcore Vs type don't know how to handle it. For years they were all that there was in terms of (domestic focused) fan culture in this country. They do deserve credit for fighting the good fight for a long time (hell, this group's genesis is really the Vs). But things change and their influence is slipping. Anyone that has been to a Vs event the last year or so knows that (at a Gold Cup game earlier this year there were about 50 people watching Canada play at Scally's. Only one table could really be qualified as a Vs table and even it was mostly U-Sector guys --and one RPB--that still hold onto the Vs affiliation). The rest of the pub would have been the "hardcore Toronto FC" fans he describes in the article. Yes, they are mostly interested in TFC and Canada is a poor second choice for them. But, they were still there and they will always be there when Canada plays moving forward. Bob seemed to get that in his article; not every V does. Thus the resentment of some.

They can't see how it's a good thing that the tent is bigger now. They liked the way things were in the past when they were the whole show.

Personally, I blame the Voyageurs then. Or whoever it is that was responsible for getting the word out. I have supported the CMNT and been in love with football my entire life, and had never heard of the Vs until after TFC came along.

So whoever is "in charge" of "marketing" the group is to blame for apparently being determined to keep it a secret. ;)

Somebody get those guys some "members only" jackets or something. ;)

In fairness the CSA shares a lot of blame too. The team never plays here so it's hard for a SG to take hold.

:lol:

It has some funny bits but I don't like the general facetious tone of it.

I'm not sure where you got that feeling from - I'm pretty sure the Vees, minus a few of the yahoos (of which every group has) are extremely pleased with the newfoudn turnout and support for Nats games in Toronto.

I don't think it's so much them liking running the whole show (because generally they are among the first to admit that there isn't much of a show to run) but more that they're sharing this tent with people who don't necessarily share the same level of interest or passion in the topic (the Nats) as them. And I think that's pretty natural.

I mean, the rest of this isn't directed at you, 'cos I know you know it, but for others that are newer to this, think of it this way: The Vees are the Trekkies of the Canadian soccer world. Trekkies who for ten years, watched each show in small groups in public, had to fight for space with few resources and no foothold, where they were vastly outnumbered and often derided, heckled and pushed around, by people for liking the show. So it's natural they've got a bit of a persecution complex.

And now new TFC fans who attend Nats games are the normal people who don't have to go to such lengths to watch, have been gifted a tv and cable by their parents, can congregate in larger numbers, and can tune in when its on but choose not to buy the boxed set, don't have a cutout of Checkov in their room, and will never attend a convention, and, in some cases, come from the same groups of people that derided the Vees in the first place. And, in some cases, are now telling the Trekkies how to watch, where to watch, and how crappy they were before the new fans came along.

Neither is better than the other. No one is right, or is wrong. And I think it's pretty normal for both groups to have a slightly antagonistic relationship until both groups figure out how to get over themselves, which will come in due time.

Well the Vs have been an obviously visible presence at every home CMNT game since 1996 (and many games abroad), not to mention the site has been the 2nd hit when "Canadian Soccer" is Googled for many years. So, no I don't think marketing is the issue.

The piece is funny because it is true. In all seriousness, I find it quite sad when 'hardcore' supporters of the biggest club in this country (especially those who self identify as being Canadian) do not know or care much about the National Team. It just doesn't make sense to me.

The Vs influence is not slipping. They are what they are. If one wants to know more about the MNT player pool, there's only one place to go. And if one wants to support the MNT (when the travel is further than a drive up the 401) there's only one group of supporters to turn to. In previous Gold Cups, a handful of Vs would go down to support the MNT. In 2009, over 30 Southern Ontario Vs went, (plus the author of the above noted blog who is passionate enough about Canadian Soccer to have travelled to LA, Miami, and Columbus to support his National Team at the Gold Cup). So, if anything, the Vs as a distinct group from TFC SGs, are only getting stronger.

Frankly, I'm sick of people attacking my glory-hunting ways. I support a big club because their matches were the only ones on TV when I was a kid. I had no family connection to a team, nor did I have the resources to follow an obscure Coca Cola League Nine team. I wish that people who go on about this get fucked by their own high horses.

Wicked, all the power to them and God bless the internet then.

So I am safe to assume that with all this passion and effort put in by the Trekkies, err, Voyageurs, the CSA will be overhauled anyday now? Am I also safe to assume that they organized more ticket purchases to the Jamaica match then TFC supporters groups? Is it also due to their demand that it is easier to find a Canadian shirt in Foot Locker or what have you then it is a Brazillian/Italian/English/French/Mexican, etc. one?

No offense to anyone directly, but if they've been around and carrying the torch for soccer in Canada for so long, and are so passionate, organized, and focused, then why is the sport still in such disarray in this country and the governing body a laughing stock of pilferers and seperate bickering entitites? Why was TFC such an instant and overnight success, but our CMNT has it's best upcoming talents looking elsewhere and the current roster fed the fuck up?

Were the Voyageurs around in the 80's when the senior men's side was guilty of match-fixing? How did they respond?

If they are the sole authority and standard for the national setup, then should it not also be them that are partly responsible for it's failings? I mean, they apparently demand zero accountability if after 24 years we still can't rise above Costa Rica, Trinidad, Jamaica, etc. Or are they comfortable being perennial losers?

Should it also not be in their to-do list to do something (raise awareness, increase the level of, or generally support) about the CSL? I mean, I've attended about 50+ CSL matches in my time and unless they are the little girls waiting to play on the pitch at half-time, Croatian, old Italian, or Serbian, I don't think I've ever seen a presence at a match.

If they only support the senior MNT, okay, so be it. If not, and they truly represent soccer in Canada, a couple trips to the States hardly gives them cause to be ornery or look down their noses at anyone. In fact, it makes more sense why they stay in the dark. There isn't much to be proud of for soccer in Canada based on whatever developments they have encouraged.

For the record, in my opinion, 30 people at an away match does not signify an accomplished level of support when a local U8 soccer team brings 50 with complimentary passes. Especially if said U8 team happens to wear Red, in which case, they may have actualy outdone 'em. ;)

That depends on how you define Dino Rossi.

Because TFC, on the field, is a real success, right?

And TFC fans have really influenced and reformed MLSE, right?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but expecting the Voyageurs to reform the CSA and build a national team of distinction and repute, considering they rarely play, games are spread around the country, and the team is mismanaged is a bit much.

If Toronto fans are so great, why were the Lynx such a failure? For the same reason that the Canadian Nats are - it's a crap product, poorly organized, poorly marketed. The Lynx didn't fail because the fans organization sucked...I mean, the U-Sector is, effectively, that group!

TFC is a success because a stadium was built, a franchise bought, a team fielded and a game played every week or so in the same city, and it was all marketed by a national sports and entertainment conglomerate. The support for the team we all love is astoaunding, but you're giving fans too much credit - it's not like RPB, NEE and U-Sector bought, built, and founded the team! We were given a team, and we've all responded beyond anyone's wildest expectations.

Give Canadians a national team that plays games, is marketed well and is reasonably competitive and you'll see the same happen with the Nats.

This is a great point.

Especially when you consider anyone who attacks MLSE or TFC management is derided as an impatient lunatic.

Thinking the Voyageurs could reform soccer in this country is laughable.

One thousand cocktails to you, good sir.

To my eyes, following a big club because that was what you were exposed to is a lot more natural and a lot less convoluted than going through some arbitrary process of weeding out teams in order to fit some pigeon-holed set of needs: the club needs to be crap, but not too crap; they need to be in a big city, but not the first team in a big city; they need to have history, but not too much history that it looks like I'm latching on.

At the end of the day, such "fans" are committing the same crime they accuse their glory-hunting cohorts of being guilty of; they're searching for a club to fill a specific gap, instead of just letting it come naturally. And like the glory-hunters, if circumstances change, and that club no longer fills those needs (they become too good, too well known), then the affiliation falls apart.

At the end of the day, supporting a big club because that was who you were exposed to is no different than a four-year-old supporting his local: they do it because of convenience and exposure. No toddler makes a principled decision to support a club because its their local and such connections are important to them.

I agree with Peter Ing.

And just to re-iterate, I'm not saying the Vees are the best thing since sliced bread. But for a group that gets our back up when the Vees look down on us, we sure do set up a lot of strawmen to knock down in their direction when it is convenient for us.

Why, aren't they organized into a group called the Voyageurs and don't they vote/write letters to their MPs?

Man, you can't compare the tenacity of a virtual non-entity like the Vs have been described and the "I demand a meeting with front office, boycott this and that, blah blah" and get a meeting with the powers that be SGs we have (and are slightly embarrased of ;) ).

I'm not saying it's their fault, I'm saying if they want to act like or portray themselves as the authority, becoming defensive or writing facetious articles mocking or deriding the new blood, at least some of our ire should be directed at them for the state they've put Canadian soccer in or their inability to even encourage change. Right?

The first I had ever heard of any reformation of the CSA, in private conversation or in the media, was after TFC.

I look at it like TFC sucked some of the football fans or maybe recent immigrants in and made them a local and emotive connection to our own football club, and now that they feel that connection they are looking at the MNT setup and saying "what the fuck?!" to the whole thing.

To me it doesn't look or feel like the Vs have done anything to try and assimilate (there goes the Trekkie references again) or capitalise on all of the new football fans that TFC has developed or produced. There is a whole new and emergent football fanbase on the scene now and patronising them (well, the ones not wearing Manc shirts :P ) instead of embracing them seems more like the practice than the exception among these Vs, from what I've read, and that's probably part of the reason why there is no unity or large representation, no?

As for TFC fans influencing MLSE, oh hell yes. Would TFC own it's own TV station 3 years in without our sellouts? Would the teachers have increased their stake without our resounding success? Would they be constantly trying to find new financial ways to tap our passion if they didn't know we have it? Would they have increased season ticket allotment? Would they have discovered there may be a much larger fan base for football in the area then has already been unearthed?

If anything, the CSA has gotten worse over the last 25 years. Less approachable, less open, less responsive, less orgainzed, less efficient, less sensible, less necessary. If they, like most government bodies, felt even slightly accountable to anyone let alone an organized and devoted supporters group like the Vs this would not be the case. Would it?

I wish work wasn't so busy because I would love to be able to put some attention into this. I want to know why people that have immigrated here within the last 30 years or so have so easily taken to supporting our national hockey team (and in some cases their local one), a sport that everyone aggrees is not at all popular outside of our boundries and would therefore require not just the adopting of a new team, but a whole new sport with completely foreign rules, regulations, and practices that the vast majority of these people can not even play due to an inability to even skate on ice, when these same people in most cases already loved the world's game but couldn't give a shit about the CMNT? (Longest sentence ever!)

Who's at fault? If it's the governing body, it's those who vote in elections and support football for not being more active/proactive, right?

My venom for "gloryhunters" is mainly aimed at people who don't support their local teams, and support some big club that wins alot instead. I will mock more gently (but it may be hard to tell from the outside, I concede :P) at people who don't have a natural football connection to a particular league and chose to follow the Yankees-equivalent.

I admire Patrick's recent quest to find an EPL team and thought it was laudable that he eliminated the big four from contention immediately. I do feel some guilt in contributing to saddling him with Everton, especially when Tottenham has had such a great start to the season (if you'd had the same conversation at the start of last season the situation would be near-reversed ...), but that's football, unless you have 200 million pounds of talent on the bench.

But don't you know?! There are Rules!!!

I know, I was shocked too!

I don't disagree with the overall theme of your posts, actually. But you're being way too simplistic and overestimating the power of TFC SGs.

1 & 4. Who has influence. Customers, yes? SGs, no. MLSE has responded to the product-consumer relationship, not necessarily the club-fan relationship that matters to SGs - eg. making the team better, building a soccer culture, improving MLSE to a results-based organization. If TFC could make 12$ trillion by building a 120 000 seat stadium and giving each kid a pony and a balloon, they'd do it - we all know it - regardless of their meetings with us and their all for one slogan or their bus ads that have the guy who looks like ZacRWE on them. ;)

What have been our results? Team isn't any better. Prices are up. Walkout resulted in...__??__. Accountability is only in the pocketbook, not in the meeting room. I'm not trying to shit on our success. It's really awesome that we have meetings with Paul Beirne and the others. I say that seriously. A lot of that is from our initiative, and we should get credit for it. Some of it, however, is because Paul Beirne 'gets it', some of it is because MLSE needs us to make money (the CSA doesn't), and some of it is...lets admit it...window dressing. The actual impact of SGs is much smaller than we like to admit.

2. Do the Vees actually give us the flack we like to say they do? Really? Or is this just another red herring we establish out of our own insecurity?

This ain't gonna be popular, but personally I think we TFC fans need to get a bit over ourselves. We bought tickets, shirts, and beer, organized some roadtrips, organized ourselves into social groups, and cheer incenssantly for a team bought for us that plays games week in week out for six months a year in the biggest most ethnically-diverse city in Canada, in a new stadium that was built for us.

If we built TFC out of the ashes of defunct Toronto soccer teams, or turned MLSE into an on-the-ice/on-the-field success-based organization then I'd be more inclined to support your point.

3. I think this is more of a strawman we set up for ourselves when they don't defer to our successes, largely from people with no interaction with the Vees or their boards that make the most of the odd dumbass comment made by morons. If the Vees assert themselves for TO Nats games, we'll tell them to get off our turf and rightfully so; if they sit back, we say they're useless. The TFC section of their messageboard is the second most popular one. Really, can we truly identify how they've slighted us? I mean, are we that insecure about the successes we've achieved?

5. Again, different relationship, different scope. The CSA is not accountable to SGs. They're not accountable to the public. They are accountable to provincial soccer associations, who are in turn accountable to people who pay registration fees, who are largely not Vees, but Moms and Dads who put their kids in soccer to keep them fit over the summer. That's very diffuse accountability over a national scale. Much les sintense or direct than TFC.

I'm not going to convince you the Vees are great. And good, that's not my point. Because they're not! I don't think the Vees are the bees knees or cats ass. I've been involved with both groups and I'm not saying they're always effective, because they're not. And neither are we.

But we grossly overestimate our influence, and totally dismiss the challenges they face that we, conveniently, don't have. And I think we know this, and it manifests in insecurity on our part...which we totally don't need to have.

Yes, the Vees need to get over the fact that they were there first when no one else was, but we need to get over the fact that they don't defer to our each and every success. It's silly.

... except in Montreal :ph43r:

Having served time on both generations of the toddler.. I think its up to the parents to provide a proper upbringing to keep the continuance of 'not as crap as some but alot crapper than others' teams afloat in these difficult times, especially with the power that be having a closer look at the old finances. For the parent, it's key things like setting the boundary's at an early age and keeping them consistent throughout their lives (you shall not play with/hangout/date anyone from north of the gap.... or Millwall... for example) denying them exposure to big clubs (easy to do on the western side of the Atlantic, just only let them watch football when you do, not so easy in the home counties where every shopping centre has a ManU or Chelsea satellite shop and they have to endure abuseat school),Its also important to magnify the past by celebrating teams that were 'finalists' or 'had a good run and we didnt give a fuck cos we were drunk anyway' ("remember that night in brussels/metz/villa park")...
So unless your Portuguese or maybe were born in Madrid or one of them scary north of the gap types (even then) and your kid grows up worshipping Ronaldo or David Beckham then yes dammit, you as a parent have failed....

Hahahahahahahahahahah very true!

The sad thing was that of the small Canadian support section behind the goal, my eyeball estimate put the TFC SG members around at least 60% of those in red. That was true for both WCQ matches in Montreal last year.

Only a handful of us were long-time V's types (obviously all from this group), so Lord Bob's sweeping generalizations about TFC hardcores aren't exactly true.

So, Rudi posts a comment on my blog post, I approve it, say "hey, I haven't been to the U-Sector boards in a while," and there's a thread (partially) about my blog post! This is the most famous I have ever been.

Anyway.

When you're reading something at my site, before you get offended please remember that I'm a pretty bad writer and I probably didn't mean to tick you off. I was actually a bit nervous about my "the Toronto FC diehard" part, since there are a lot of TFC fans who read my site and, Southsider though I am, I actually like most of you guys. There aren't enough supporters of Canadian teams in this country.

I inserted a few sentences about how impressed I was at your support for the only men's national game Toronto's gotten to host lately then started affectionately taking the piss out of you guys. Apparently the "affectionately" got lost in my brain and it looked like I was accusing U-Sector guys who care deeply about soccer of being a bunch of prats who scream for Danny Dichio but wouldn't know Lars Hirschfeld if he bought them drinks.

So, just so we're clear: I was trying to be funny and I wasn't trying to paint every Toronto FC fan with the same brush. If I was going to bitch at Johnny-come-lately supporters, would I really skewer groups like the U-Sector who were cheering for the Toronto Lynx when I was in junior high school? Even I'm not that stupid!

I know how to take jokes -- I'm all about self-deprecation -- but your post about TFC fans raised my defences. First you berate the 'faux-Euros' for not knowing enough about their team of choice, and then you skewer Toronto FC fans for knowing too much about their team. It reminded me of this fuckface in a Man Utd shirt saying, "Man, Toronto FC fans are so stupid, they think Dichio is even better than Ronaldo" (WTF? That's nonsense on so many different levels. I'm also passive aggressive so I only kicked his ass in my mind.) Anyway, that's probably why some people had a negative reaction.

Edit: fuckface, Man Utd shirt -- redundant ;)

Peace. We are all on the same side, after all.

Being a Voyageur is not really about belonging to a supporters group like we have here or even being signed up to their board. Being a Voyageur is a state of mind. If you support Canada's National Teams, you are a Voyageur whether you like or not! Everyone at the Honduras game was a Voyageur, for that day. We were all one.

It's like the Tartan Army. 'The Voyageurs' is just the name of the supporters of the Canada's national teams.


PS. We are selling more Vs scarves. You all know you want 'em. Razcle is the contact. See this thread.
http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic...?TOPIC_ID=19901


PS. The Voyageurs did get Dale Mitchell's ass fired. And Yes I truly believe that.
http://www.insidesoccer.net/the-voyageurs-...mitchell-to-go/

No offense intended, but I'd say very much wrong. If the V's could somehow be blamed for the state of Canadian soccer, had been guilty of not trying to encourage change, or had been acting defensively by writing articles which genuinely derided fellow supporter groups and the "new blood", then I might agree, but none of these things have actually happened. The author of the article doesn't claim to be representing the Voyageurs, and in fact takes a humourous shot at them just as much as he does any other group, so I'm not sure why you are getting the impression that he's speaking as some sort of representative of the Voyageurs as a whole and that the group is laying down some smack talk against other groups. I also think its fairly apparent that the article is a humourous piece that was not meant to be taken very seriously, so I'm not sure how you are getting the impression that he's being defensive. Heck, the article's intro includes the following passage:

"Never fear, mediocre sports scribes of our glorious dominion. I, Lord Bob, despite never having been further east than Montreal, have taken it upon myself to do the generalizing for you. Merely refer to the 2,000 largely inane words below, and you will understand what it is to be a Canadian football fan."

To me that doesn't exactly scream out "I am being completely earnest. Please take me seriously". I think if anyone is taking offense to this article, it might be they who are getting a bit on the defensive side.