Sup fellas. I notice a lot of politics and theology, but not so much scientific stuff. Normally, I'm not a big science-y type, but there is a topic that's caught my attention recently in the field of psychology, namely, 'lucid dreams' (though that name sounds a little stupid to me).

Essentially, for those who don't know, Lucid Dreaming is being aware that you're dreaming while remaining within a dream, causing a virtual-reality effect. Originally, I thought this sounded bogus/esoteric, like psychic powers, remote viewing, etc. etc. etc. But, it was an interesting concept (Which I'm actually using as a basis for a story of mine), so I dug a little more, and found out that not only has it been proven real, it's become a small topic in psychology classes, and has universities such as Stanford and Harvard studying it.

It's an interesting subject, and aside from being a form of natural Virtual Reality, in a manner of speaking, I think a lot of the implications scientists are suggesting are pretty cool (ie: Practicing a skill in an LD and actually getting better at that skill due to the way the brain/nervous system is mapped, using it as a form of treatment for sleep disorders, etc.).
I also think it's worth noting that the fact that the human brain can actually produce such a convincing replica of reality that it's virtually indistinguishable really speaks at just how complex the human brain is.

Some info pages:
www.lucidipedia.com
www.wikipedia.com/lucid_dreaming

So, you guys have my opinion on it. Now, what do you guys think? Ever experienced it yourselves (I haven't; least not that I can remember)? Heard of it? Got some theories on what causes it? Etc.

Commence discussion, gentlemen.

dont they say something like we as human beings have not even begin to tap the abilities of the human mind? I personally think we have and already done so. An what you see is what you get.

As for Lucid Dreams I believe in this concept, though I do have to say that I do not think they reach such a state of being "like virital reality" I think it is more like a "day-dream" that you may experence some visuals with in your own mind. Maybe causing you to "black-out" during this time. I also find that Lucid Dreams remind me of the space between sleep and awake. Those few groggy moments of having first being awaken but not yet knowing it.

Well, true. One of the misconceptions is that we only use 10% of our brains, which is technically false, since each part of the brain has some function associated with it.

Like I said, it's more of just fascinating as far as how complicated the brain really is.

As far as abilities, I wouldn't count the idea of improving skills and stuff through lucid dreaming as a new ability; improvement of skills is built-in; it's just making use of the nervous system in virtually the same way, but while you're not really moving.

Well, to say that though is actually kind of contradiction of sleep and dreaming. Dreams tend to occur most often in REM sleep, when sleep paralysis, dreams, and Rapid Eye Movement all occur, and where, usually, we aren't conscious.

While I haven't 'Lucidly Dreamed' myself, I can confirm that it is a VR-esque enviornment, as simply improving dream recall itself shows. Since dreams are usually forgotten instantly, we don't really have much of a taste of how real it seems, or at best are left with a less-lifelike memory. But if you start remembering dreams more vividly, you can start to remember feelings and such that would have been forgotten before.

A lot of people who've experienced this, amateur and doctor alike, have confirmed that it feels very real, and that it is possible to exercise control over your dreams after a while.
Now, as far as improving skills and stuff, I will give you that. Currently, I lump it above the ESP/Remote Viewing theory, but lower than the actual concept of lucid dreaming in general. There are theories and evidence to support the possibility of its uses, but I haven't found concrete proof like Dr. Hearne/Dr. LaBerge's reports that would prove that it can happen.

I've had a couple of lucid dreams, I think, and I totally failed to do anything more than waking myself up. It's like shortly after I figure out it's not real, my mind gives up trying to subconsciously maintain the dream and I end up just day dreaming in bed.

But dreams can be very vivid and detailed, at least in some respects. One time I was woken up by someone throwing me a magazine that had arrived for me in the post. So I pulled off the plastic wrapper, and started reading it for a while... then I woke up again and realised the magazine was still lying on my bed wrapped up. I'd fallen asleep again before opening it. But I could remember every detail of the imaginary magazine I'd been reading in my dream. The pictures, the writing, the adverts, the jokes... all bullshit made up in my head on the fly in my sleep but still 100% convincing.

Well, what you're describing sounds more like the later stages of hypnagogic imagery (the patterns generated by Rapid Eye Movement while your eyes are closed); if you see realistic images, colors, etc. like you were, that's the point where the Hypnagogic imagery starts to make the transition into the actual dream state.

Also, it's been mentioned many times in the reports I've read that lucid dreams often have varying levels of lucidity, varying from "I was dreaming and had the nagging feeling that something was unusual" to "It was exactly like reality". Usually, it takes actual repetition of simple excercises to get your brain in the habit of state testing (Ie: Double checking nearby text every time you open the door to see if it warps/shifts), so that it becomes a habitual response that will manifest in dreams. In many ways, it's similar to the infamous "Pavlov's Dogs" experiment.

So, while your level of lucidity might have been low, it can go farther than that. And like I said before, dream recall (How often you can remember/how much you can remember of your dreams) can influence your memory of the event; it may have been a lot more detailed, but a lot of those details could have been lost on waking up.

On another note, another interesting fact is that although it's only recently become a part of psychological research, there's a lot of past records of it in both scientific and spiritual pursuits.
It's been a staple of the practices of Tibetan Buddhist monks for many years as part of their meditational training, it became the basis of the "Dreamtime" many shamans visit to find inner truths, commune with spirits, etc. In addition, both Saint Augustine of Hippo and Marquis d'Hervey de Saint-Denys wrote about it, in 415 AD and 1867, respectively.
Scientifically, even before modern proof existed, it was a heavy topic of Carl Jung, and to a lesser extent his colleague Sigmund Freud, regarding the unconscious, dreams, and the relation to both to waking life.

A lot of interesting stuff abound on this topic.

true .. but then again many shamans were on mind altering drugs and there are many whom still practice this today. But your not talking about a hullcination caused by a drug of some sort, even though they produce the very same results as a lucid dream while awake and both look and feel quite real.

My wife can remember just about everything she dreams about the night before and for the most part they never make really any sence. Just nonsence meshed together of the days events and whats on your mind at the time.

Interesting.

I've read up on these things before. At one time, I kept a "dream journal"
since it helps the recall but the closest I ever came to lucidity has usually
been at the end of particularly bad dreams where I realize it's not real and
wake myself up.

Anyone ever "wake up" in a dream only to find that you're still asleep? lol

I for one can say I've had this happen, on a number of occasions. The first time, though I was fully aware I was dreaming, I was still held by the boundaries of what "should" happen, as opposed to what "could" happen. And of course, like anyone, I thought: "I'm dreaming. Heh. Guess that means I can fly."

Upon trying, I failed.

The next time, about 6 months ago, a similar thing happened, but I had total control. It's hard to explain, but considering your mind creates your dreams anyway, it's merely a matter of being able to still control your thoughts as you dream... Or something. Regardless, it's an absolutely bizzare experience. Fun, too.

I've been able to fly in many non-lucid dreams. As recently as
last week, even. Actually, I've gotten quite good at it over the
years. :smug: The first dreamed attempt at flying was a dismal
failure. Later I was able to float right above the ground. Now I
can gain height with relative ease but it's still hard to control
when I get me some altitude.

Spik, have you ever experienced the feel of waking up once
you've achieved a lucid state? I always wake up after I become
aware it's a dream and sometimes it feels like I'm physically
being pulled backwards as the scene quickly fades into the
distance. It's very weird, almost as if I were actually meta-
physically somewhere else and my "soul" or whatever was
rushing back to my body before it woke up.

Dreams are very weird things. <_<

Yo, Spik. Long time no see.:>

As for what happened, I've heard a lot of stories about this; Stephen Laberge describes it as a kind of a mental block. The problem is that when consciousness kicks in, so does the adherence to natural laws. Even though you know it's a dream, being conscious kind of brings back that natural, almost subconscious expectation of limitations.
The reason you had control later on is probably because your mind had had time to get used to the idea, and become more ready to accept that things worked differently in a lucid dream than in reality.

Yeah. I figured as much. Regardless, it's a completely bizzare experience.

And nano, yeah, the whole "pulling back" thing seems to be a common trait.

I attempted to watch a film on this called "The Waking Life" or something along those lines. I personally don't have much interest in this subject but you guys might get something out of it. The media that they use is kinda different too.. like animation... but not haha. Check it out.

I've seen portions of waking life; planning to watch the whole thing.

It's an indie-film, so you have to keep that in mind... it's done by the same guy who did "Slacker" (The movie about the bohemian youth-types that follows some characters for a bit, then switches to someone else in the scene and follows them), and it's kinda similar in that it changes topics often.

Still pretty good though, from what I've seen.